yes, it wasn't a scientific concept! i just think you expect younger people to be a bit more naive so it surprised me to see so many older fans in that boat
There are some sensible people of all ages, and plenty of idiots likewise. My question to the older generation of grumblers would be "When did you buy your first season ticket/first start attending matches on a regular basis?"
I'm deffo an oldie according to my birth certificate, but a relative 'newbie' from an NCFC point of view, due to geographical reasons. My first ever game was the last of the season in 1996, I think, when Stringer's NCFC beat Arsenal 2-1 at Highbury to finish 5th, but of course, due the the block ban on English clubs we weren't allowed to win the European Cup and emulate our revered country cousins darn sarf! First game at the fortress was the 4-4 draw with Southampton, you know, the Rosario game
i remember it very well. 1989-90 goal of the season as i recall? i only started going a couple of seasons before (87-88) but i only went to two games that season and started going regularly in 88-89 (when we very nearly won the double - heady days!)
Days which 'newer' fans, i.e. those who've been going since the Lambert era want to see replicated THIS SEASON. Or next. And, so, full circle we go
just shows how much football has changed in the time i've been watching (25 years). i wonder what the next 25 years will bring? financial meltdown i expect!
Ideally, a breakaway European "super-league", a bit like the current Champions league but on a bigger, permanent basis (since when did England have 4 champion clubs? ) Hell, it could even become a closed shop for all I - or any fans of the other 88 English clubs care - it basically is already. Then at least we'd be competing fairly in the Premier league - and have as good a chance as anyone else of winning or coming damned close.
We were first promoted to Division 1 in 1972, that's 41 years ago. People born in 1966, the year England won the World Cup, are now 47 years old, and probably started going to matches on a regular basis only when we were in the top tier. From the moment they started, apart from the odd season or two, things got better and better, culminating in the Walker years, this long "golden age" ending with relegation in 1995. That generation of supporters grew up thinking of Norwich as a top flight club with a tradition of playing attractive football. They had simply never experienced anything else. Those of us who have watched City since the mid-50s or before, are the ones who know from experience that it is in fact the decades either side of the 20 year long "golden period" that constitute normality for our club. Of the 63 years since 1950, only 23 have been spent in the top tier, i.e. just over a third of seasons. If you add in the years from the foundation of the club, that reduces to one fifth of seasons. As for your question, from what you say, I guess you are still in your 30s Superman, just a whippersnapper. I don't know what counts as being an "oldie" in your book, but I think you'll find it is never you, just other, even older people!
I only really started watching Football and Norwich in 2000 at the age of 7 so I can't really compete with you guys on that front. I have seen us go through play offs and promotion, relegation, several years of pretty poor football until the league 1 season and then a brilliant run of promotions to this day in my 13 years watching Norwich so I'd say i've already gotten a good taste of a range of football related emotion. I can only give my view point from those years and it's clear that the best way forward is stability. Hughton is trying to create something here and McNally is giving him that opportunity, and can we really go against McNally's judgement? THe football has been dire at times but we survived last season and we have only just started this season. It's such early days that any panic would be foolish. Villa at home is next and we'll see how the team gets on, hopefully it'll be good signs!
I'm torn on this one, Cromer. Part of me feels exactly the same as you state here - let them take their ball, form a super league, have meaningless tours of Asia purely in order to satisfy the accountants, and go away and leave us alone. But my fear is that the whole edifice of league football here might collapse as younger generations grow up knowing only the big global names. We're a bit like those fish that survive by following bigger fish and living off their scraps. Not something to be proud of, I know, but would the 'local' teams survive in the absence of any media coverage? And on a purely selfish level, I would never be able to watch City here in Vietnam if they weren't in the Premiership and playing against the big boys.
For the record my first game was the 1-0 loss to Liverpool in 83. Inspite of being supposedly one of those that Robbie says have the "spoilt child attitude" I will call his message and supers and all the others that I now shall think of as the "Self-righteous, Holier-than-thou, I-cannot-be-wrong, Tell-u-how-it-is, Serial-belittlers! There are a lot of different points there, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't (plus a bit of talking at cross purposes). Just to add to what I said previously, there are two related issues, one about football and fan's attitudes in general, the other about NCFC and our fan's attitudes in particular. The latter is what chiefly concerns me, because I agree with Superman when he says on the Ruddy thread that "we could end up blowing the best chance we've probably ever had of sustained top flight football if a section of our fan base continually fail to understand what is going on at the moment". Who exactly doesn't understand whats going on? We including Carrabuh(sorry if what I say does not tally with your thoughts) I'm sure know that the club is slowly and steadily building toward being a sustainable PL club. That the club is in rude health and the envy of many. How might we be blowing this chance? On a forum we state that we have doubts about CH being the best man to maintain the progress we are making. We would actually like to see more attractive football, a henious crime, clearly. Not because its the Norwich way, not because I'm spoilt, but because I and many believe that there is more than one way to skin a cat. this nonsense that CH has done an incredible job that the whole squad needed replacing is quite frankly insulting to a number of players who did incredibly to get us where we are. Any manager who had taken over or if PL had continued would have had money to spend. Would they have spent it wisely? we'll never know. But might we have seen some less dire football along the way almost certainly. Yes we may of got relegated but we may of finished 8th. This may seem far fetched to some, but I think he is absolutely right. For one thing, why should the prime mover of everything that has happened to us over the last four years. David McNally, stick around if the carefully constructed and so far hugely successful long-term strategy he has put in place with his fellow board members is undermined by a sizeable section of our so-called "support"? Only a select few complete morons would berate McNally, he has been the primary reason that our club has been turned around, his stratergies whilst well constructed revolve around football, a supremely unpredictable business. His original 7 year plan was blown out of the water because success came more quickly than any of us could of imagined. It caused a review and changes to the long term plans, why could anyone educated (ANd Robbie you clearly come across as that) fail to comprehend that may be inspite of his convictions that CH was the man for the job, fail to see that perhaps he might not arrest a slide if he perceives it thus? Now I'm not fool enough to think that CH would be backed in the transfer window to record levels and then sacked on a whim after 7 games this season. but make no mistake, long term project or not if CH continues to show no ability to get a win on the road and the home form shows a decline or we just don't show tangible improvements for the large outlay then why would you think and tell us we must think and must not question a clearly devisive manager? Why should our owners, who have invested by their standards (if not those of Abramovich et. al.) a lot of money to not only keep us afloat but also to now set us well on course for a brighter future, continue their commitment and unstinting backing when a sizeable section of fans won't buy into what they are doing and, worse still, start rocking the boat and knocking us off course? Perhaps they might agree, they are fans as well as owners. They have been through considerably worse times and seen it all before. So your idle attempts at scaremongering don't really wash. If and its a big if, CH really starts to lose the masses then it will be the ongoing dissatisfaction of performances and ultimately results that will lead to his demise not the fans disquiet. Delia, Dave et al at the top will make there own judgments of progress and relative success, can they ignore some fans who boo or tweet rubbish, absolutely and indefinitely if they believe otherwise. But the key is can they see progress? I can, a little but its there. Is it enough? I'd prefer more, and certainly a change in attitude to away games is top of the list. Hopefully the numbers of "rebellious" fans will remain too small to do such damage; hopefully the vast majority of us have more sense and will back those running the club and allow THEM to make the necessary decisions. We are not Blackburn, we are not Pompey, our owners and board know what they are doing, they are not corrupt asset strippers, and under their management the club is thriving. There is simply no justification at all for any section of fans to start taking the law into their own hands and start threatening to undermine the whole project. If Chris Hughton doesn't meet the targets that the board have set him, the board will deal with it. Meanwhile what all at the club need is whole-hearted, united support. Sorry I forgot we fans have but one voice to cheer and placate even the most dismal times and performances. Come on were you saying Rodent must have more time right up to the bitter end? Because Delia and co new better than us fans and what our eyes were telling us? Having been backed in the transfer market he now needs some time to get the team playing but, how much? from day one he would have ideas of how his team will play, not having all his own players means compromises but are the players really understanding what he wants the performances belie a team that maybe are not either upto, understanding or worst of all buying into his ideas. Is Ruddy's the first outward show of dissatisfaction in his methods, or just frustration after a poor performance? or even naughty paper hypabole?? And rebellious? are we boycotting games? shouting abuse from the warmup to the final whistle? throwing seats at board members, protesting outside the ground? The rebellion being some quite justified at times shouts of you don't know what your doing, sort it out and the odd boo! My god is our board so thin skined all of a sudden that they will suddenly leave the club because someone doesn't toe the party line that all is rosy? My God what a drama queen you boys are! cont...
Which leads me back to the question of attitudes. My opinion as to the cause of what I call the spoilt child attitude I'm stomping my child like feet just reading that!!! is that it derives from the fact that a lot of our current supporters became fans in our years of almost constant First Division status. Quite simply, because when it started for them they watched top-tier football at Carrow Road, and even for a time very successful years as far as NCFC was concerned, they simply came to believe that we are "by right" a top tier club. Furthermore, they were used to watching our team play the kind of football that they now think of as "our style of football". They talk about playing "the Norwich way", but it is only possible for them to think of that as "the Norwich way" because they never saw the football at Carrow Road before the arrival of that generation of managers (Bond, Brown and their legacy successors, Stringer and Walker). I and others could tell them that in the 50s and 60s, and up to the arrival of Saunders, VERY LITTLE of the football we witnessed at Carrow Road came anywhere near what they now think of as "the Norwich style". We basically started being "a good footballing side" with the arrival of John Bond and the West Ham contingent. On our downward spiral towards League One, the football that we played, which the "spoilt children" couldn't believe they were being subjected to, was simply more or less what those of us who preceded the Golden Years were used to seeing year in year out, sometimes better (in the great Cup Run and the years of Davies, Bolland and Bryceland) and very often worse. In short, what these spoilt children believe to be the norm, and their divine right to watch, is very far from the norm as far as NCFC are concerned, and there is and has never been any divine right to watch football of that style and standard at Carrow Road. Your as bad as them binners down the road, Ancient history! I quite simply don't care how we played football 50 years ago, 20 years ago, or evn last season. I want to be entertained and see my club do well Saturday, and the rest of the season and the next. The past gives us fond memories not just in seeing great football like JG volleying home or thrashing the Binners home and away on our way past them, but on away trips with friends, in new cities , the results matter but not next to the happy memories. I don't want to sit down to watch us play stoke away thinking this is going to be a steaming turd of a game and if were lucky we'll achieve our aim of not conceding or if were really really lucky pinching one too. I think if thats what you want from away games then thats all a bit sad. I'd rather win 4 away all season and lose the rest whilst trying then these meek surrenders we're getting under CH. Yes some caution is needed away from home and yes hitting on the break is a very valid way of approaching away games, but the mindset and the rigidity mean we will never succeed. Lamberts approach left us spoilt, but could a balance be found inbetween? My final point is this. The Golden Years of NCFC took twenty years in the making. Those of us older ones who watched Mike Walker's team play Bayern Munich and Inter Milan in European competition, knew just how long the road had been. Twenty years! And the spoilt children who never knew any different until they experienced the shock of subsequent decline, now expect our current manager to restore what they think of as normality in the space of little more than a year! Yes and Rome was built in a day, once again the; Self-righteous, Holier-than-thou, I-cannot-be-wrong, Tell-u-how-it-is, Serial-belittler has hit the nail on the head. except no he's talking a load of old testies again. we all know it takes time to build success, (There are exceptions! ) but in general its very true. But this bullsh@t misnomer that the; Self-righteous, Holier-than-thou, I-cannot-be-wrong, Tell-u-how-it-is, Serial-belittlers pedal that CH is absolutely right and cannot be questioned and is the only solution to moving the club forward is quite frankly ridiculous. He needs to show as in any job steady improvements. Are they being made this season? Too early to say for now. Afterall there were the odd bright moments last season, some progress made. Some steps were taken backwards too. Can CH really take us forward? Time will tell me, not the; Self-righteous, Holier-than-thou, I-cannot-be-wrong, Tell-u-how-it-is, Serial-belittlers A aparently spoilt child, Bah!
I'm torn too. I love the idea of playing in a competion that could actually be won by most of the participants. But would it be cheapened by the big boys absense? |To start with yes but then I think they would be forgotten. I don't think the rest would collapse in fact all though glory hunters are rife I think the euro league would eventually wither and die. No away fans little history between clubs and some seriously sterile encounters would I think meet apathy to the masses. OK so foreign markets would stop buying our brand for a while until they found the euro league to be dull and uninspiring. A gneration of Dads will still take their sons to their local team, and as the euroers become more distant and detached maybe football could recapture some of its soul. So let them take their ball, clubs like ours and a number of others could thrive on a more even playing field. OK, so Spurs, everton and liverpool may dominate but the rest of us might just surprise occasionally, not never as it is now. Bah!
@General Melchett With respect, I have never said that everyone who started supporting City seriously only in the First Division years now has the attitude of a spoilt child. What I surmised is that most of those who have the attitude of spoilt children started supporting City only in the First Division years. Those two claims are quite different; I made the second not the first. Secondly, neither Superman nor myself are referring to sensible and justified criticism, only to over-the-top unjustified criticism. Thirdly, neither Superman nor myself have said CH must be supported come what may. McNally himself said in his Q&A session the other day that EVERYBODY at the club has targets they are expected to meet. The implication is that if people fail to deliver, action will be taken, whether it is the manager, the CEO, the Chairman or whoever. Who on here has ever said that CH is guaranteed to meet the targets set for him? If he fails in the task set for him, he will be replaced, simple as that. So far CH appears to have satisfied the board. There is no guarantee that he will continue to do so, at which time the board will act. The point some of us are making and objecting to is that some fans seem to think that the manager should meet targets set by them in a timescale they decide. Likewise neither Superman nor myself has ever said things are currently perfect. The very fact that we are constantly stressing the need for patience, for a robust sense of perspective, for realism with regard to the time it takes to get where we all want to be, implies that things are NOT all that we'd like them to be. Improvement is needed in many many respects; our view is that it is coming, but not necessarily all at once and just round the corner. Re. your mention of Roeder; it serves your argument ill. The question is not whether the club management and board should always be backed to the hilt and supported come what may. Whether they should be backed and supported at any given time depends on whether they have earned backing and support at that time. Had the board and CEO (Doncaster) who appointed Roeder earned the backing of the club's fans? No. Have the current board and CEO earned it? Yes. Finally, you are mistaken if you think that either Superman or myself are levelling criticism particularly at members of this forum. This chapter of the debate was prompted by a post by kickitoff in which he refers to the rise of a rebellious attitude among his work colleagues, before expressing growing sympathy for it himself. The vast majority of posters on here, CH's critics amongst them, are far more sensible. Indeed, a number of those who were among the more vehement critics towards the end of last season, are being noticeably more patient right now. Good on them.
Robbie, while I accept your premise in principle, you appear to be forgetting the group of supporters who began supporting City in the late 90s, as Colk of the Barclay has already mentioned. My first City game was in 1999. Since that game, our finishes have been Championship 12th, C 15th, C 6th, C 8th, C 1st, Premier League 19th, C 9th, C 16th, C 17th, C 22nd, League One 1st, C 2nd, PL 12th, PL 11th. As you can surely see, I still envision Norwich as a Championship team, and would dream, in around 2002/03, that we could emulate sides such as Fulham, Blackburn, Bolton, Charlton etc. who had somehow managed to establish themselves in the Premier League. It will take a great many years of stability for me to ever picture Norwich City as a Premier League club. As for the European Super League debate, I, like many of you, am torn. I was thinking that promotion could work if all the champions of their respective European leagues were entered into a intertoto cup-like tournament each summer, with the best three teams replacing the bottom three of the super league. The problem this causes, however, is that the super league would simply become the new Premier League, with many smaller teams seeing staying up, and the obvious cash rewards that brings, as success. Football has reached a point now where only a handful of teams can ever be consistently successful, and that is a true shame. I only wish I could have seen the game when any team could win Division One at any time. It must have been SO much better. If only the Championship was the top English tier, eh? Money has truly ruined football. Sadly, I've never seen it any differently.
