In August 1966, a matter of weeks after England won the World Cup, 3 plain clothed policemen were brutally murdered in Sheppards Bush, near Wormwood Scrums Prison. The Gunman was an Ex Army know criminal. Harry Roberts, who evaded capture until late autumn, due to his Army survival (living rough) training. He was eventually captured in woodland near Bishops Stortfort. His escapade lead to the most shameful chant I ever heard at The Vic. The Rookery chanted, as I expect as many other clubs did. " Harry Roberts, Harry Roberts, Harry Roberts is our friend, (in loud chant) HE SHOOTS COPPERS. I felt total disgust at the idiots who joined in such a moronic chant. Has there been a worse?
I seem to remember seeing games on tv involving Liverpool for a few years after Hillsborough, the opposition fans of some clubs chanted about that.
Worst of all in my eyes are some of the songs sung in the past by Arsenal and West Ham fans directed at Spurs. I felt ashamed to be in the same stadium with songs like `one man went to gas, went to gas a Yiddo' and so on. Some of the Ibrox chants were pretty tasty but nothing to compare with that one.
Worst as in just foul are like those mentioned above I.e Hillsborough, Munich, Jews & Spurs etc. but worst as in just rubbish, my candidate would be the dismal chant of "You're just a small town in *...." * Substitute the name of the other clubs rivals..
I have to say I am disgusted and sickened by anyone who uses the Y word. It was born in hatred and anti-Semitism and will always have sour tones to it. Anybody who uses it deserves locking up! But also I remember a handful of morons last season who insisted on chanting stupid things about Deeney hating the police and kicking your head in.
I also started watching football in the late sixties and it was a difficult time. Within a couple of years (1969 or so) the skinhead culture had spread to the terraces and it was all about taking or defending of home ends etc. Only about half of the songs from this period were actually about supporting your club - the other half were about threatening/insulting the opposition fans in any way which was appropriate, a few being also directed against the police. Many took part who would now be ashamed of it - and many also sang along without necessarily thinking about the words (Maybe some of those so called fans didn't even know who Harry Roberts was). The point being that crowds react in a different way to individuals - a mob psychology takes over which after reaching a certain pitch no longer thinks about what songs are about. The Aston Villa fans used to sing a song with the words `We don't carry razors, we don't carry lead - we only carry hatchets to bury in your head `, I would dare to say that none of them, if alone, would actually think of performing such an act - they just sang it because everyone else was.
Having just watched the 'Who Do You Think You Are' with Marianne Faithful who has a Jewish background, to see the hatred inflicted on the people of that birth, shows to me that we need to be aware that individuals should be treated with respect. Some of the chanting described above is just plain wrong and when people are influenced to join in without actually knowing what they are saying reminds me of some of the scenes before WWII.
Sorry to say that I did actually use the Y word - it wasn't meant to be insulting but was part of a quotation about the song itself. Actually the word is used by Spurs fans themselves in a positive way. Also Arsenal have probably just as many fans of Jewish extraction as Spurs do. The word is simply a short form for Yiddish. Describing a people of mid European Jewish extraction who use that language and is linguistically no more insulting than Scot as short for Scottish. However it has become a loaded term in many people's eyes and so should be avoided for that reason. Use of hissing as I have heard from West Ham fans is disgusting and should be handled with every severity possible.
I know you dont mean offence mate. But its out of respect for one of our own that we should probably all try to refrain. It does upset this person who shall remain nameless unless they choose to reveal themselves.
A good thread and some good reasoning for why certain chants should not be allowed Maybe Spurs football club should be made to make more effort against their own fans as well as away fans We all see the racism signs around football grounds but it seems that 99% of that is aimed at white people against black people when there is much more it should be aimed at
the Y word should be banned. i hate it (though that's not the reason it should be banned. It's so incredibly offensive. it's such a derogatory word...let's face it, it was written on every yellow star during world war 2! It's horrible, i just don't get how anyone could find it acceptable. (sorry, it's a hate of mine, and not just a pet hate, i feel far stronger about it than that!)
Good thread this and this whole debate on the Y word is great example of football chants being used that the "chanters" have no idea of the level of offence caused. I did not realise myslef until I heard David Baddiel on the radio explaining how offensive it was to Jewish people and H has confirmed it a couple of times when the subject has been discussed before. Yet Spurs fans insist on chanting "Y** Army" at games and there are even Spurs fans at work who will say it at work! There is going to be a real issue now that The Black Lawyers association are getting involved!
This is a very difficult issue really, I mean generally speaking it's just a word, a group of letters that relate to a particular part of society, in much the same way that "******" is a bastardised version of the word "negro" which is also a simple word meaning "black!" The problems arise when a section of society are offended by the use of the word! When that happens, there can be no doubt that the offending word should be banned from use, there is no acceptable alternative!
The subject of P.C. is a very difficult area in as much as all of us here feel offended by hearing the Y word used or the N word or the P word for people of Pakistani origins, not because of the words themselves, but because of the hate with which such words have been used in the past. Yet we have few problems when jokes begin with 'One day Paddy and Mick walked into a pub and...`. I have also seen the word 'Gippo' used on a thread here in the past. As for insinuations about Welsh relations to sheep I think we are mostly amused by those. For me real P.C. is not about words, but about seeing and classifying other people first and foremost as individuals and not as representatives of a nation, race or religion. When words are used in an abusive sense, particularly in a crowd, then they should be forbidden. Also songs which contain no offensive words, but rather content, such as ' In your Liverpool Homes - you look in the dustbin for something to eat - you find a dead cat and you think it's a treat ' should be forbidden because they have nothing to do with supporting your side - and are seen as a prelude to the inevitable scrap afterwards.
Most chants are game at football matches providing their aimed at the opposition fans in general and not targetting a sub-group or a player. Fans will goad and antagonise opposition fans with chants they know will annoy them but as long as it's kept within the context of the game and not beyond then most times it shouldn't be an issue. I've stood amongst skinheads from S Oxhey in the early 80s when they were Sieg Heiling en masse and booing black players every time one touched the ball. That was was, unbelievably, tolerated. Unthinkable now and quite rightly so. The Y*d Army thing, it was out of order for the FA to stick their nose in. That's an issue for Spurs and their fans (many Jewish, majority not) and this PC nannying cr*p hasn't helped race/ethnic relations one bit; just because you make it illegal to say something it doesn't stop xyz from believing it. Carry on the way it's going and polite clapping ONLY will be the order of the day in case a chant offends someone - for example, if the referee really is a b*****d and we let him know then how long before one sues a club for stress and humilation caused?
I thought I heard something awful at the vic a few years back. We were playing Blackburn and i could hear grunting noises on the Rookery. i was utterly horrified and hoped I'd got it wrong - it was some bright sparks making monkey chants at Brad Friedel
I agree with more or less all of that save for the Baddiel stance on this. If he is so concerned why has he been a card carrying chelsea fan for so many years and never, to my knowledge, came out to criticise their songs?
I seem to remember from about that time-"Tip-toe/ through the Rookery/ With a flick knife/ and a sawn off shot gun/ tip-toe through the Rookery with me" Plus its corollary "...through the Oak Road, with a hand-bag and a water pistol..." Which illustrates that incredible ability for football crowds to be totally offensive and yet exhibit an inventive (if play-ground level) wit. Occasionally something genuinely witty emerges, but sadly it sinks to the lowest common denominator all too often. Herd instinct.
One of the wittiest chants I ever heard of was when Graham Rix (who'd been implicated in a kiddie-fiddling charge) moved to a Scottish club and the opposition fans chanted "If you tolerate Rix, then your children will be next" to the Manic Street Preachers tune "If you tolerate this". Not a laughing matter and a very serious subject but the point being football supporters can be inventive and very cruel.
