I'm not trying to suggest that ManU wouldn't have won in the second half had they gone in 0-0, they probably would have. I'm suggesting that we cannot know, we simply cannot be sure what would have happened, and like cricket matches that don't have a satisfactory conclusion, regardless of what team was 'likely to win' it doesn't matter, you can only call it a draw. I just know that at some point some pundit is going to say that ManU are a great team because they "grind out" wins against the lesser teams. Perhaps there should be more analysis of how these wins are achieved?
But I'm sure any honest fan would say that every team gets decisions even more so then United, but because its Man United a huge deal gets made out of every little decision if its deemed to give United a win. Because that's what happens when your successful, but that's football.........
The official that didn't flag for Drogba's offside goal against United in 2010 had his name and personal details outed by Sky/BBC. There was an inquest into the handball rule when United weren't awarded 2 penalties (that never were anyway) against Chelsea in the clash last month. Palace looked under no threat at all and would likely have drawn but for the scandalous penalty decision. Nobody was talking about that today as Young's theatrics and Moyes being the "hero" by condemning him was front page news.
A caller tonight on 696 made a claim that he believed there are coaches in football, that teach footballers on how to dive, in the sense teaching them how to dive "properly" and after some discussion he backtracked on what was a fairly ludicrous claim, yet actually progressed to a valid point, which was "players are encouraged to dive" and that is the main issue and why Refs are constantly being conned and tricked into making decisions which we deem to be poor ones. For example if you have a player that is honest and stays on his feet, and when they go back to the dressing room and you have team mates saying and experienced players saying ....then these comments stick and these comments are rife within football dressing rooms as mentioned by players and former players. This is why players like Lennon & Wallcott deserve so much praise for staying on their feet as they choose to ride tackles and refuse to cheat, if more players followed their example then it would help make the job easier for the ref and then we may realise that its the players putting far too much pressure on the refs, and they are the ones which mostly cause refs to make poor decisions.
Gary Neville more or less said the same thing on a MNF last season and said it was the main difference between playing in the Premier League and in Europe back then. He said after a while, attackers were more or less told to go down (presumably by Fergie) and you had to be smarter as diving and theatrics were more or less rewarded in Europe but not so much in the PL at the time. He said that he and his teammates would then berate strikers for not going down if clear contact was made. In the modern game football has become polarised and all the leagues/tournaments play roughly the same but it was still interesting from an ex-pro nonetheless.
It was Ian Wright on 696, not a player i usually pay much attention to but in this instance he was right and also mentioned in his time players where encouraged in every dressing room he was part of, to go down if contact was made. Then we had another caller come on, who is a manager in an under-15 league talking about young players copying the diving antics, which is what happens, kids latch onto these "qualities" and it won't be long before every single youth player believes if they get touched, they have a right to go down.
There's two related issues here. One is the "right" to go down, but the other is the contact that is manufactured by the attacker - like when Young wrapped his own leg round the defender in order to "win" a penalty - something he has done "successfully" before. I don't know how refs are supposed to spot such conduct, so regardless of how much I berated him for getting the other penalty wrong, I compliment the ref for spotting that. However such mistakes will continue to be made, and these mistakes will have consequences, ultimately affecting the final placings. Hence this thread to debunk the ludicrous claim that mistakes are somehow evenly distributed between clubs, even themselves out over a season for the same club, or have no ultimate effect... which we should all know is ridiculous when there can be 1 point between final places.
In real time it can be very difficult to spot the 'trailing leg' dive Ashley Young seems to be a persistantly fond of. Again, my feelings could start a separate thread on refereeing techniques, I think the 4th official should be a more pivotal role and have access to the replay footage we see withing 15/30secs (the time normally wasted by players haranging the ref before any re-start). One mans naked eye, is good enough to officiate 98% of most games, but it's a bit 'last century' technologywise. The odd incident in a game that would need 4th official clarification, would not extend games any more than a fake injury, where a player rolls around grimacing like a bitch delaying things.
Vim, I've no doubt referees make errors yet as we know, in jobs which rely on human instinct errors will always be made,no matter how intelligent the individual is. My issue is that players trick, con and do whatever it takes to gain an advantage and often these poor decisions made by the referees are knock on effects. But of course some are blatant screw ups and as you say cost teams points or prizes.( the price is right ! )
Diving's bad enough, but Ashley Young's persistent attempts to con penalties out of officials is getting ridiculous. He initiates contact himself and goes to ground. It's rather reminiscent of Robert Pires, so it's no surprise that Young's a Goon.
How extensive is this thread going to be Vim? West Ham had a perfectly good goal disallowed yesterday because the lino got the offside wrong. Jarvis was called offside when he was just onside, his shot was saved by the goalkeeper and then Nolan put in the rebound from 30 yards as Boruc was getting up. Does this make the cut? Or are marginal offsides more understandable?
Mr Wandering Y-word, which I cannot mention obviously. I think people can post here anything they want, I certainly don't want it restricted only to decisions having a direct impact on our season.
Interesting view that Nev and Carra put on the Man U pen/sending off incident, saying that in the end it was a right decision. The contact o/s the box is nothing, a coming together, Young then got across Digakoi? who should then being behind Young should have let him go and leave it to the keeper, any subsequent lunge in that moment inside the box is a golden rule no-no. Young maywell well have stumbled over his own feet if left, but we'll never know.
I don't know why anyone would get the idea that Utd would condone Young diving. Moyes has openly criticised him, as did SAF. Before him SAF criticised van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo and Nani. Ronaldo was a much better player when he stayed on his feet.
David Moyes isn't very good at this managing Man Utd lark - all the talk after the game was about Ashley Young's dive, yet Ferguson would've made it about the ref giving them nothing all game by pointing at the other decisions they didn't get (conveniently ignoring those were dives too)
