It's obvious the leaders are all shifty eyed aliens and we earthlings are just one of their x box games mun !
If the Japanese attack Pearl Harbour that is a declaration of war in itself. If the U.S knew of such an attack and therefore put their carriers to sea, then the only rationale would be too attack the japanese fleet at the time they were declaring war on the U.S. would it not? I'm well aware that the U.S did not declare war on anybody, I'm well versed on the topic, though I do accept that British intelligence knew of a pending attack yet failed too inform the U.S in the knowledge it would ultimatley bring them into the war which is what we desperately needed. But then I guess that's another conspiracy theory in itself!
I agree with your conclusion Dai but not how you get there. "opinions are speculation" is just plain wrong. Otherwise a jury would be convicting people based on speculation. They don't - they come to a collective opinion on guilt or innocence based on the evidence that's presented to them. There's either enough to convince them or there isn't. There's plenty of evidence in relation to 9/11. It can be split into three: 1: Evidence that supports a terrosrist attack and nothing more. 2: Evidence that suggests an "inside job". 3: Evidence that is inconclusive. The vast majority falls into the first category, proving conclusively a terrorist attack, along with the accompanying incompetency of the security services. The second in size is number 3. By far the smallest is number 2. In my opinion, and it's only an opinion, where there is no evidence, or evidence that can be construed differently (the thermite point is an example), the conspiracy theorists seize upon that as proof positive for their side of the debate, refusing to even look for a more straightforward explanation. It's become human nature to question governments for understandable reasons after the lies over Iraq but sometimes the truth really is at the end of the path where the evidence takes you. I understand the opposite view and respect it, but I happen not to agree with it.
Ok fanny There are so many conspiracy theories that this could go on for ever ! Like every week I decide to retire but get lots of letters of some bill telling me I can't , it's a conspiracy I tell ya !
The world of espionage during WW2 was such a complicated issue which is impossible to decipher, but it's a fair bet that William Forbes-Sempil was a double agent who's information as well as evidence gathered from Bletchley Park make it nailed on that Churchill and the war cabinet knew a strike on Pearl Harbour was the target of the Japanese.
It doesn't take an informant or a great deal of 'intelligence' to know that Pearl was a target for the Japanese.
Reading back through, I apologise if this post comes across as aggressive, its mainly for two reasons: 1. The tone in which I happen to write when I'm tired and annoyed 2. This is an emotional subject on which I will not tolerate certain spurious claims, even when they come from people I usually hold some respect for, on such a serious matter. I think this is justified personally because it really was a tragic atrocity and I don't think it's something that should be treated so trivially. Usually I've got a lot of time for you NJ, but not on this, not at all. I can't believe you claim to have the best interests of the victims and their families in mind while regurgitating this, even if you hind behind the devils advocate excuse. It's offensive to them and if you said this stuff to someone affected by the disaster I wouldn't blame them for giving you a slap. At least you've tried to appear diplomatic with these ridiculous views, while kops'n'rodgers is just chatting ****. Thank you to knackeredjack by the way for making some very good points over the last two pages. Questioning is fine. Disregarding the official story because it sounds 'shifty' while providing nothing to counter it except utter bull****? That isn't. Well we weren't talking about those incidents, so why would we be discussing evidence for those? Vietnam was dodgy of course (Though the motive obvious) but WW2 is a very complex subject, and I think it's likely you're talking about Pearl Harbour. Let me tell you, if you're about to say the US faked Pearl Harbour, I urge you to read into the buildup to the Pacific theater of World War 2 rather than going down the bad path of making an uneducated statement about it. The floors of the building above the impact area of the aircraft move laterally sideways as well as vertically downwards from pretty much the moment they begin to fall, and continue that way. Any correction of the path of the building back is the result of the way the structure below is damaged as the top falls. Literally, your argument rests on the building falling vertically straight down as a result of a massive co-ordinated use of planted explosives, which it does not. If you want to provide me with any credible, peer reviewed evidence from an accredited expert or group of experts that proves me wrong, that proves it was a conspiracy, then do enlighten me - and then if you can do that, please go find a person with a qualification in engineering and try to get it past them. Otherwise I have no reason to respect your opinion; after all, it's hearsay and incredibly disrespectful to the victims who you claim to sympathise for. Before someone says "DURR EVERYONE WAS PAID OFF, THEY'D NEVER PROVE IT WAS A CONSPIRACY", can I point out that only someone with the intellectual capacity of a two year old would believe that you could pay off literally the millions of people who could've blown the whistle. Yes, you do. You've been utterly deluded by fabricated nonsense. Please give us a bit of your genius insight into the massive cracks in the story. Come on mate, give it a go, I could use a laugh. 1. That's the point; they were not working alone. They're a sophisticated terrorist organisation that had a lot of resources who spent a lot of time putting together a hell of a plan which prodded the US into action as they wanted. There's a ton of solid evidence for it, they admit to it for god sake, and if you can't prove any evidence otherwise when the burden of proof is on you then your opinion is worthless. 2. Are you going to expand on the passports point whatsoever? 3. Evidence was being collated while the wreckage was dealt with. People were still trapped for god sake, what do you want them to do, sit on their arse and leave the place in a wreck so they can prove the blindingly obvious to conspiracy nuts? There were investigations anyway, and not just public ones. 4. What was bs about the official report? 5. If you're going to question it, at least make a half arsed attempt at justifying it. Russia Today is literally a Kremlin propaganda organ. I'd believe Saville pleading for innocence before I believed them over something like 9/11. This is a pretty common accusations amongst pop "historians", but can you substantiate this and it's link to 9/11 with any meaningful evidence? For one thing, any relationship between Bin Laden and the west would've been destroyed by the stationing of coalition troops in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm. Once again, give us credible evidence from something that isn't a conspiracy blog that this is the case. It was reasonably expected at the time, and as it turned out the case, that people were trapped in the rubble alive. As for the destruction of rubble, I'd love to see a source for that given that a block-sized ruin was sat in the middle of the financial distract for one of the worlds biggest cities, and wasn't moved and cleared properly for some time. Not to mention that any evidence you could have supposedly found of a controlled demolition could've been found by anyone helping with the wreckage at that point. Unless you're suggesting everyone who helped clear rubble and look for survivors, every incidental passing member of the public, was a paid off conspirator, then I don't see how you can believe this to be true. Tons of wreckage was recovered, thousands of body parts, and a part of one of the aircraft was only discovered wedged between two buildings less than a year ago! Then what else hit it? Please debunk the official story of a passenger aircraft striking the Pentagon. There is also CCTV footage of the incident readily available on YouTube, and dozens of witnesses. As KJ pointed out, even your "source" noted the eyewitnesses. We also have the testimonials of victims families from the fourth aircraft about phone calls made from the back of the plane during its fateful journey. By the way, I'd be interested to know if you have ever seen what a missile of any size looks like in transit and what a sizeable missile, say a cruise missile, will do to its target. If a Tomahawk had hit the Pentagon, it would've leveled far more of the building than the plane did. In that case, why can't you: 1. Provide examples of said false flag attacks, and substantiate those claims. 2. Give a reasonable explanation of why the US would attack its own financial powerhouse, damage it's own economy, murder thousands of its own people and get tied up in unwinnable middle eastern wars intentionally. 3. How, even if point 1. and 2. could be answered, they would do it in this situation.
Every debate has nuance, but on this one its pretty clear that one side of it engages in providing legitimate evidence and convincing arguments. Your post doesn't really change that. You're dismissing his opinion for the sake of balance without consideration at all for the merit of his argument. I'm sorry but if you judge the opinion of independent professionals who assessed the incident as somehow not more worthy than that of a conspiracy theorist on an internet forum who cherry picks from his own source, then you're not being insightful or philosophical, you're speculating just like you claim everyone else. In fact you're worse for putting yourself on a podium of infallibility with the following comment: You're not objective - nobody is, those who claim to be always have a reason to pretend they are not affected by bias. I find it utterly bemusing that you're claiming to be making a credible point about peoples opinions and the truth when all you've done is given us some neutral-ish quasi-philosophical statements of support for peoples right to opinion, and that you actually have the arrogance to suggest you are infallible in regards to being objective. I find it incredibly ironic that you're insinuating KJ was being arrogant because he found an unfounded opinion disputable. As a student of history I concur with you that more people should understand the importance of nuance. But that doesn't really excuse you providing a bull**** holier than thou explanation to KJ that, in your words, came down to 'How the **** would you know what happenned?', when he has actually made a decent argument in comparison to the person he is addressing. Calling his claims baseless speculation in the same category as Kops'n'rodgers is, I'm afraid to say, utter ****. Oh good, you did come back to Pearl Harbour. I seriously can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not because you've just answered your own spurious question. Japan attacked the United States. The United States failed to adequately prepare and anticipate due to poor intelligence and communication. They took stock, realised that a full combat role in the war was now inevitable and declared war. That is really it. They didn't conspire to start the war, Japan had been seeking an imperialist expansion policy through the Pacific for years and this was the culmination of their plans to try and force the US to the negotiating table before they could be bled dry. The US knew Pearl was a target for attack if it came. But if the US had known for sure the attack was coming, they would've attempted to rotate the moorings of ships in Pearl Harbour and tried to get some of them out beforehand, and their carriers would've been in position to immediatley counter attack - neither of these things happened. And of course this whole theory would mean that the Americans knew the Japanese invasion of Singapore was coming - considering that this was a major military embarrassment for the British and a catastrophe for the wider allied plan, such an eventuality is unlikely. In regards to the opinion thing, what I said earlier...I'm with KJ on this that opinions can be of different merit, certainly in this case. Maybe I'm less diplomatic though and I certainly don't respect the alternative opinion in this case - while people have a right to an opinion and I won't censor them for it, if they're going to spout such crap then they shouldn't expect people to treat their view with a respectful tone. It doesn't deserve it. Now I'm in a bad mood and I'm sorry if I come across as an arsehole, but this thread made me very, very annoyed. Mainly because I come here occasionally to catch up on news about my favourite football club...not to drag myself through dreadful conspiracy theories and bad history. EDIT - On a lighter note I've found myself agreeing with Dai on something. WHAT DO I DO!!
I didn't say I did know, just that it was fair bet? How do you know aliens are grey? You DID say they were!
Agreed. but it does take an informant and intelligence to know that they were actually going to do it !
My query is that knowing as soon as the Japanese attacked PH the US would enter the war, did Churchill's government, through the agent, encourage the attack?
Cherry Jack - completely agree with all you have said. It winds me up so much people that think terrible events like this are conspiracy theories. I have absolutely no time for people like that.
Cherry you go ahead and rant away it makes no odds to me , the only thing I strongly dis agree with and I think is appauling on your part is your insinuation about my sentiments in this post , I think your tone is arrogant and misjudged and despite what you think the OP comes from the right place and with respect . You talk about how the victims would feel but there are some that think along the lines of the government being complicit with what happened,they would probably like to give you a slap too. " In a 2004 Zogby poll, half of the residents of New York City reported that our government at least knew of the attacks and consciously did not prevent them, and two-thirds want a new and independent investigation. Half of victims’ family members conclude the US government was complicit in the attacks and deaths of their loved ones, according to the largest family group’s public representative. " Now im not going to get into what family members may or may not think but I will say that your comments are inaccurate in that you don't actually know how members of all the victims families feel on the conspiracy of 9/11 as the quote above proves. I will repeat once again what my take is on conspiracy and indeed on this topic of 9/11 . There are 3 sides to every story version A version B and the truth that lies in the middle . Trying to take the moral high ground on a subject matter that has millions of people with more informed opinion than you or I is maybe a a bit daft but that's your right , truth is you have no clue about the subject matter and neither do I ,the difference is that im not closing my mind and you are, if it makes you happy to draw a line in the sand on these types of matters that's fine,others do not though and I respect their right to Question anything they feel needs questioning, it is at the end of the day what we base our culture on isn't it, freedom of speech and the right to ask searching questions. If you think its all bullshit that's fine, we cant always agree on everything in life can we ? Sorry if you feel offended by any content, it was not my intention to get into the deeper aspects and talk about family members, I just wanted to create debate on something that still is in the mind of many people after many years past by, it is a subject matter that does stir many people as we have seen on this thread, and I must also add that every person who commented on this thread has been very respectful to the subject matter and to the people that lost their lives despite what you may think Cherry .
warning not for non realists [video=youtube;YOCfIF_v-NQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YOCfIF_v-NQ[/video]
