When Rafa was here and the Big Four as it was dubbed was always United, Chelsea, Arsenal, and ourselves it was pretty standard fair as to who would be in the CL and the rest was just a mash-up. Since we fell off in 2009 you have now added Spurs and City into that mix. Newcastle and Everton have also now flirted with these positions. Is it good for the prem ( especially this upcoming year) to have at least 8 teams that could realistically finish in the top four and at least four teams that could seriously challenge for the title? You look at Spain with the constant 2 horse race and only the last two CL spots that interchange ( Valencia, Malaga, Sociedad, Sevilla,etc). Italy has had many comers and goers in the CL over the years ( Return of Juve, Fiorentina, Udinese, Roma, lazio, etc). Germany probably have the best interchange between winning the title and the CL positions as ( before last year) you could have seen bayern, Bayer, BVB, Schalke, Stuttgart, Werder, Wolfsburg,Hamburg etc in the top 4 and challenging. Is it a good thing that we have so many teams that COULD make those positions interesting? Does this now take the focus on the league to another level and thus slipping in the CL ( bar Chelsea, been a bit dry for the English teams, when it was a Big Four, at least 2 teams were in the semi-finals). Thoughts?
I don't like saying this but I think we have a big 4 (plus 2) rather than big six. (Or a big 3 + 3) Neither ourselves or Spurs can really call ourselves parallel to Chelsea or City at the moment. Besides one year with Rafa, when was the last time someone other than Utd, City, or Chelsea had a realistic shot at title?
1+5=6 2+4=6 3+3=6 4+2=6 5+1=6 6 is my answer. with 2 (City and Chelsea) + 4 (Spurs, Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool) = 6 #finalanswer #good@maths
There's only 3 clubs who have a realistic chance of lifting the title at present - City, Chelsea & United, so it's a big 3 these days. Then there's the pack who are all chasing the 4th place trophy - lead by Arsenal & with Spurs, you lot & us, in that group for the last few seasons.
Ok think of it like this.... When the big four was there, the top signings in the world were going to those clubs. Now with the addition of the new teams, the wealth is spread more. Possibly why there have been struggles in the CL? In that timeframe of 2005-2009, the English teams were beating everyone in the CL, now, we see teams barely get by the group stage! Thoughts?
Barely getting by the group stages is pushing it, given that Chelsea won it the season before last. The rest of Europe (notably Germany & Spain) have caught up, the Italians are slowly coming back after years of turmoil & now the French have a petro club as well. The wealth isn't really spread around more, it's just that City gate crashed the party with their Billionaire, which shoved your noses out of the trough. You've continued to spend in order to try & get back in there, so that makes 5 clubs spending CL level cash - then add Spurs into the mix, a well run club who've traded players well in recent years & have also spent big off the back of it - making 6.
Chelsea was a bit fluky, similar to us in 2005 ( more of the dig deep performances that won the titles). Last year, Chelsea didn't get out, Arsenal barely did then got knocked out, United got knocked out right after, City didn't get out of the group the past two years. United didn't get out of the group 2 years ago. Just saying, for the league, really good to have all of these teams vying and challenging. FOr the CL, does it have a direct correlation to why the English teams have stumbled?
If the Big 3 were settled it would be very easy to settle for Tobes opinion. However, the big 3 are very far from being settled. United have to re-structure a club let alone a team. As good as he appeared to be for Everton, nobody knows how Moyes will fair in his new role. In the background there is a major change with the loss of Gill. To top that even the Mancs are finally recognising that their midfield has a great hole in the middle of it - Fallaini isn't going to fill that. Of all of the clubs at the top, it is perhaps United that could either walk the League or drop off to 6th. Cheslea have some wonderful talent. The media are lapping-up Mourinho's return. But remember he's coming off a severe mauling at Real Madrid, it looks like he's already fallen-out with Mata and let Lukaku go out on loan. We already know that he's not likely to favour a cavalier attacking strategy yet his defence still rests on ageing players.Add to that the old warning that you should never retrace your steps and again the gut feeling says all is not well and nothing is assured. City is a whole ball-game in itself! Nobody knows if their new manager can actually make his collection of starlets into a real team. They could hit form and streak away or keep mis-firing all season. The next grouping is equally in a state of flux with Spurs now being seen to be the ones who have taken the greatest gamble by signing nigh on a whole new team. For the first time for ages we appear to have actually strengthened our squad and look set to continue the progress we made in the 2nd half of last season. Will it be enough? Who knows. However the uncertainties in those sides who finished above us leads me to believe that we may even be able to achieve higher than 4th this season. Time will tell
No, I think it's irrelevant mate, I just think the others have / are catching up. We had a few years of near embarrassing dominance, nothing is forever.
Fair enough but in the end, glad we are seeing the likes of Ozil coming to the prem. In that dominant period, bar Eto'o, we had easily the three best strikers in the world in Torres, CR, and Drogba. We had the names. I think one year 3 of the semi-finalists were United, Chelsea, Liverpool or something like that. It was crazy. I look at Italy and Germany as the hope of what having good top 8 as it keeps those positions fresh and can allow for some flux in the league and positions.
its an interesting debate! hmmmm... my opinion is there cannot be an equal 6 or 8. Those in the CL get a huge amount of extra money and sponsorship so those trying to get in the CL have to go some. Here is the thing..... arsenal fall out, well they'll still have the cash and stadium. if spurs fail they have neither and will be under severe player pressure... the wages must be big there.... 5 of the 7 expect to be in CL next year. We have cut our cloth to non CL and so need a few to do a lot... we want in. There is a big 3 in terms of revenue or i should say riches. tobes is right that it is city chelsea and utd but i don;t agree that they are those who will win it. utd cannot win it this year surely... but spurs despite all the bollox about players could.... the big 3 should read the richest 3. how another point was about english teams stumbling in the CL. again only my opinio but i see 3 things here 1. the prem is full of smaller clubs with small mentality. southampton are actually bucking that trend and showing ambition. but the standard is not that high. 2. as new teams which riches emerge they get bad seedings so city have frankly struggled cost they are coming up against slightly better sides i nthe groups. they should have done better last year but still... they are 3rd. tottenham will be 4th seed next year if they just get 4th. arsenal are 2nd seeds. 3 The best players all chased the euro in spain. simple. bayern have spent big to build a team to compete and over take them... we lost masch, alonso to spain. utd lost ronaldo.. bales just gone... chelsea got old... in short the very best go to spain, we get the rest. in short our standards dropped, the spanish got thier act together and the evidecne is how the english sides struggled with italian clubs too.
the whole problem here is uefa. if force major took over a european super league would exist and play out side by side with domestic league. in that case you might contend that all 8 teams could be in a 2 tier super league... why? cos the revenue would drive it. If lfc were in the second div of Europe v ajax for example that would be ok. then you go comepte there to get promtoed to the top div there. right now its a lock out due to having to get 4th consistently in the domestic div to maintain revenue required. you need the commerical aspect, the stadium AND you need to be in europe. LFC don't have 2 of the three and all that keeps arsenal going is being in there.
I know Italy is different and the TV money and things like that are not anywhere near as good but..... Napoli slowly built a side to get into the CL and have pretty much sustained that ( even missing out last year they kept their players and back in it). Fiorentina were in it when we were, have now fallen out, but have bought really well and should push. Inter who were always in it have fallen behind some but they still have the pull to get good players in. Roma are another funny one who were in it but have had some exodus. Not really lost too much and seen players like De Rossi stay on. Udinese were in it for a few years and really only had Di Natale as a name player. This is what I am talking about, with the amount of teams now that are good in the prem, could we see something like this where we have 8 good teams that can all at some stage or another get into the CL, challenge for the title, challenge for the CL, win FA/COC cups, etc. The wealth being spread.
yes i think the prem has one big issue. distribution of tv money. barca and real get all the cash in spain. the rest struggle. if we did this in england honestly i think lfc would benefit and it would cut the legs from under the likes of southampton who are spending mad money really. the big in demand sides would get ore moeny and the likes of palace v sunderland would not get any... ................ "good" is a relative term. there are 3 really good teams in spain. 2 in france in theory, 2 in germany. below that there are the "good" for me england has one 2 reall good teams and then the next 6 vary a lot. i actually think southampton and villa have decent outfits that can trouble teams... consistency is something else. finally the wealth is not as spread as all that... most have sapre cash but too much of it goes on wages so really there are only 3 truely rich clubs
Wealth compared to the other leagues though. I would say Germany have 2 top dogs right now but literally have about 6-8 teams that could all be in the CL spot. Bayer, Schalke, Werder, Wolfsburg, recently you saw EIntract in there, Hamburg, Monchengladbach ( blast from the past that one). MITO, what are your thoughts on Spain and Germany had every team qualify to the next round of the CL or Europa this upcoming year? I think the British teams did the same or at least the English teams.
bluff.. 1. i think the german third team won't do anything though.... 2. my thoughts on all spanish and german teams making it through the CL groups? CL is easier. Shalke got an easier group and i epxect them to be at least second in thier group. Dortmund are 3rd seeds but got an easy group and could put arsenal out. i fancy dortmund to win that group and napoli and arsenal to fight for 2nd. bayern are going right through.. no question spain... real and barca are fine. athletico will be no problem. it gets hard in group a where basically one of the spanish or german sides have to fial if utd come through. so i expect city, utd and Chelsea to come out of groups but not arsenal the europa? valencia should be fine. Seville should be fine Freiburg should just scrape through but we'll see. the europa is easier we saw that... its league 1 half the time. I see in general 3 frankfurt should be ok
That link in full about the TV money and allowing the smaller teams to spread the wealth..... but at a cost of English talent?
When was this? The league is always going to be 'bought'. Everton are the only team who've been knocking on the door but they are firmly never going to be let in unless and until they find a wealthy owner.
