Summer 2013 Transfer Rumour Thread - Mk5 - The Final Countdown

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It's good to see people finally questioning JWP's creativity, if you look at his passes on squawka for the two games this year he played 0 forward passes in the final 3rd (I am not counting freekicks or crosses - look for yourself.) I can't be bothered looking back on last year as he is a much better player anyway, but I doubt that he would have played too many forward passess and would have played less than 2 through balls the entire season. It is this lack of creativity that will comprimise any attack that he is involved in imo. I have long been critical of him and I think he has improved dramtically, twice on saturday he chipped a ball over someone's head and beat them, when he did this in the first half, if it wasn't for having to evade someone's boot he would have been able to lay it off to someone in a goal scoring position. So he can occasionally beat his man and put in a good cross but he doesn't do enough for me to warrant a long-term place out on the wing or as part of any of the attacking 4.

As a holding midfielder he looked quite good alongside wanyama under virtually no pressure. Again I feel that he is too limited going forwards to partner wanyama, when he bulks up more, improves his passing and general play he would be more than decent back up to schneiderlin but I feel he is a long way off providing genuine competition in this position.

I would say his best position would be as part of a midfield 3 like how Adkins played when he started last year, we don't play like that and I don't think we have much cause to with so many talented attacking players of which JWP is for the moment on the fringes of (in terms of ability not form - on form he should keep his place until others play better than him.)
 
Thought this was a transfer thread? Not another thread were people can say how **** they think a player is.
 
Beefy said:
Thought this was a transfer thread? Not another thread were people can say how **** they think a player is.
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If by **** you mean good then fair enough, no one has said our players are rubbish. FWIW I think moses would be a fantastic transfer in and in discussing his current incumbent I feel I am adding to the discussion of would moses be a good buy.
 
I think it's a bit harsh to criticize JWP's play when he is leading the team in assists (admittedly, it's 1) and key passes. Also right up there in number of passes and pass completion accuracy. It doesn't matter in terms of effectiveness which direction the passes go or whether they are in open play or off set pieces or crosses. He's creating, he's spreading the ball around, and he's keeping things flowing. That is what midfielders do.

But it does raise a legitimate question about where he should play eventually. I actually think he is a lot like Davis-- just a generically good, hard-working midfielder. And like Davis did last year, he can get the job done from AMC, just don't expect him to play like a typical creative-type modern attacking mid. He'll play more of a support role, instead of a Ramirez like free-role or a withdrawn striker. We don't have any wingers, and MP doesn't appear to want them. Even Moses and Mayuka are more modern-type guys who get in the box instead of just streaking down the sideline and playing in a cross. Therefore, Osvaldo, Lambert, and Lallana/Ramirez/whoever offer enough creativity.

Ultimately though, his best position to me will be as a deep-lying playmaker a la Schneiderlin. At that position, I think you get all of his ability to spread the ball around, maintain possession, and keep things moving. But you'll still get the advantage of using him on set pieces. The only problem he has is that he's not very good on defense yet. But maybe with Wanyama holding things down, we can afford to let him learn as he goes.

Schneiderlin is much better on defense, they are pretty equal in terms of technique/vision but Schneiderlin makes better use of those skills due to his experience. JWP has the set pieces and I think shooting in his favor. So it's closer than one might think. He has played better than Schneiderlin has so far this season, but I also expect this is just a minor blip for Schneiderlin. And there's plenty of available playing time to try JWP out in a few different spots and see how he and the team develop. Maybe he ends up thriving on the wings or at attacking mid. Who knows? He's done well wherever we've played him so far.

As for getting in Moses, I like the move if on loan. We need a guy like that, but we don't necessarily need one now. I don't want to sign a high-risk/high-reward player just to try and get in the top six and if it doesn't work out we're stuck with a long term contract. Moses wouls probably start for Saints this year, and serve as a bridge to the next academy product or high profile signing.
 
I Sorry I Ruined The Party said:
I think it's a bit harsh to criticize JWP's play when he is leading the team in assists (admittedly, it's 1) and key passes. Also right up there in number of passes and pass completion accuracy. It doesn't matter in terms of effectiveness which direction the passes go or whether they are in open play or off set pieces or crosses. He's creating, he's spreading the ball around, and he's keeping things flowing. That is what midfielders do.

But it does raise a legitimate question about where he should play eventually. I actually think he is a lot like Davis-- just a generically good, hard-working midfielder. And like Davis did last year, he can get the job done from AMC, just don't expect him to play like a typical creative-type modern attacking mid. He'll play more of a support role, instead of a Ramirez like free-role or a withdrawn striker. We don't have any wingers, and MP doesn't appear to want them. Even Moses and Mayuka are more modern-type guys who get in the box instead of just streaking down the sideline and playing in a cross. Therefore, Osvaldo, Lambert, and Lallana/Ramirez/whoever offer enough creativity.

Ultimately though, his best position to me will be as a deep-lying playmaker a la Schneiderlin. At that position, I think you get all of his ability to spread the ball around, maintain possession, and keep things moving. But you'll still get the advantage of using him on set pieces. The only problem he has is that he's not very good on defense yet. But maybe with Wanyama holding things down, we can afford to let him learn as he goes.

Schneiderlin is much better on defense, they are pretty equal in terms of technique/vision but Schneiderlin makes better use of those skills due to his experience. JWP has the set pieces and I think shooting in his favor. So it's closer than one might think. He has played better than Schneiderlin has so far this season, but I also expect this is just a minor blip for Schneiderlin. And there's plenty of available playing time to try JWP out in a few different spots and see how he and the team develop. Maybe he ends up thriving on the wings or at attacking mid. Who knows? He's done well wherever we've played him so far.

As for getting in Moses, I like the move if on loan. We need a guy like that, but we don't necessarily need one now. I don't want to sign a high-risk/high-reward player just to try and get in the top six and if it doesn't work out we're stuck with a long term contract. Moses wouls probably start for Saints this year, and serve as a bridge to the next academy product or high profile signing.
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His assist and all of his key passes (pass that lead to a shot) bar one that went one metre sideways were from either set pieces or crosses. Not that the context demeans their importance but it's important to note that these weren't examples of JWP opening up space for his team mates with good passing.

Fair enough if you think he is about equal in terms of technique/vision I personally don't think he is anywhere close. I agree with your other points - similar to davis, generally a good footballer, better as a holding midfielder I don't he's a better shot. Not seen him hit one other than straight at the keeper yet, although like you say with experience all these things could improve.

My major problem with Davis last year was that he kept possession but rather than being a conduit for the more talented players he was an insulator and limited the attacking space by slowing the game down and making it easier for the opposition to defend. I feel JWP does the same thing, he plays at a tempo that is too slow and he doesn't have the passing range or the off-the ball movement to open up space for other players leaving them isolated or without good attacking options.
 
Just because JWP has shown no signs of defence splitting passes or deft chips in and around the box doesn't mean he can't fit into the attacking four, from what we've seen this season he probably deserves a place more than anyone. He has completed four more key passes than any other player in the side, ahead of Rickie with 3 and no-one else has more than one. He has the joint third most key passes in the league, he has completed four more crosses than any other player in the league after only 2 games, he has completed eleven more crosses than anyone else in the squad, with no-one else having more than one. Only Lovren and Schneiderlin have better pass success percentages than him. He's the only player in the team to actually officially have an assist. All this from an 18 year-old. He has provided us with a more potent threat than anyone else and provides something no-one else in the squad has done to this point, just because he's not flicking the ball through three defenders legs and into the path of our mythical behind-the-lines strikers doesn't mean he doesn't fully deserve his place.
 
Mikey said:
Just because JWP has shown no signs of defence splitting passes or deft chips in and around the box doesn't mean he can't fit into the attacking four, from what we've seen this season he probably deserves a place more than anyone. He has completed four more key passes than any other player in the side, ahead of Rickie with 3 and no-one else has more than one. He has the joint third most key passes in the league, he has completed four more crosses than any other player in the league after only 2 games, he has completed eleven more crosses than anyone else in the squad, with no-one else having more than one. Only Lovren and Schneiderlin have better pass success percentages than him. He's the only player in the team to actually officially have an assist. All this from an 18 year-old. He has provided us with a more potent threat than anyone else and provides something no-one else in the squad has done to this point, just because he's not flicking the ball through three defenders legs and into the path of our mythical behind-the-lines strikers doesn't mean he doesn't fully deserve his place.
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It seems everyone including me think he merits retaining his place. He has played very well. Whether he is better than lallana, rodriguez, lambert, osvaldo, ramirez at playing as part of the 4 is a more worthwhile argument. I personally think all 5 of them over the season will demonstrate that they are superior players.

It's a good point about his crossing it's one of his best attributes and has been our biggest threat in 2 games against substandard teams. It says quite a bit about the way we are playing atm i feel. No where near enough drive and creativity. A problem that JWP is as much a part of as anyone else, indeed I would argue that his fairly one dimensional style of play is a primary contributor to the 180 minutes of no goals from open play.
 
lamballana said:
Incredible really that we are having such an in depth dissection when he's still only 18!
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Hes playing in a vital position and his age isnt relevant. The lack of games he has played for the club is though and it goes both ways, hes only played a handful of good games but equally he may continue on his very promising trajectory. I can only judge him on the games he has played for us. (as a side point and i swear im not having a go at you but its a bit ironic hearing you talk about indepth disection when i cant recall you writing more than one line of comment, sorry that that comes across badly by all means continue i have no problem with what you are doing)
 
Rabbitspectrum, this comprehensive dismantling of one of our brightest young talents is quite baffling and I disagree with almost everything you have said. I think personally it says a lot for his talent that even you have to begrudgingly admit he merits his place in the side.
 
pass the football said:
Rabbitspectrum, this comprehensive dismantling of one of our brightest young talents is quite baffling and I disagree with almost everything you have said. I think personally it says a lot for his talent that even you have to begrudgingly admit he merits his place in the side.
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Feel free to disagree i would be interested in discussing it with you
 
Strewth........Don't you blighters ever go to bed? I see we are in for a Senegal international......Anyone know who it is? Or is it this Ba Fellow?
 
I truly think JWP will develop into an AMC. We mustn't forget that it's the second game of the season, the team is still gelling.
Ward-prowse hasn't played with these players much!
 
rabbitspectrum said:
Hes playing in a vital position and his age isnt relevant. The lack of games he has played for the club is though and it goes both ways, hes only played a handful of good games but equally he may continue on his very promising trajectory. I can only judge him on the games he has played for us. (as a side point and i swear im not having a go at you but its a bit ironic hearing you talk about indepth disection when i cant recall you writing more than one line of comment, sorry that that comes across badly by all means continue i have no problem with what you are doing)
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So, you think he hasn't done well in the games he's played for us? I felt he was excellent last season in those opening three games; the united game in particular. I believed that Nigel should have stuck with him a little longer.
 
rabbitspectrum said:
It seems everyone including me think he merits retaining his place. He has played very well. Whether he is better than lallana, rodriguez, lambert, osvaldo, ramirez at playing as part of the 4 is a more worthwhile argument. I personally think all 5 of them over the season will demonstrate that they are superior players.

It's a good point about his crossing it's one of his best attributes and has been our biggest threat in 2 games against substandard teams. It says quite a bit about the way we are playing atm i feel. No where near enough drive and creativity. A problem that JWP is as much a part of as anyone else, indeed I would argue that his fairly one dimensional style of play is a primary contributor to the 180 minutes of no goals from open play.
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I'm beginning to think that the only thing that is "one dimensional" is your view. You seem to have an overly critical view and expect perfection. Each individual is different with different attributes. I'm a huge Gastom Ramirez and Adam Lallana fan, but right now, JWP would be in my team above these two purely on his ability to not give the ball away; something the others need to improve on.

Were you one of these people that claimed David Beckham was over-rated because he never dribbled passed a full back?
 
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