I had an epiphany this morning (if you can call it that) that if we do (as seems likely) sell Bale to RM it will be our own fault. Now you can argue that we should have sewn it up under Harry, and that the team should not have crumbled away. And you can argue we really definitely should have bought a striker last year. and you can also argue that the last three transfer windows have been quite terrible... but more than that is the fact that the club does not go out of it's way to develop players, or sign players who REALLY want to play for the shirt. We are currently debating on whether a Welshman should stay with us rather than chase his dream and play for a club where he will almost certainly win trophies and play with one of the best players in the world right now. The way I see it, Bale moved away from Wales for a reason....to be successful and win things. The club buys foreign players because they are cheaper (generally) than Local kids, and more talented. As soon as we prize these qualities over a desire to play for the shirt we open ourselves up to these mercenary attacks. Looking at the team now there are three players that have already said they would like to end their careers at Spurs - Defoe, Dawson and BAE I think they should be given a contract that does that. Yes we can have other ST, CB and LB's but they should be kept as they are talented and want to play for the shirt. As soon as you lose that, and you do not have CL football or trophies why should the best players stay?? I think the club needs to define its self with a style of football like Barca, or Ajax, and really develop an identity for itself, and an afinity with it's players so that the youth team is not a mixed bag of players that might one day make it in some capacity (whether with us or somewhere else) and one full of players that can play the new "Tottenham way" and we know can make it before they play for the first team (or Villa, QPR, Norwich etc) ... What do you guys think?
I think we already ready have a very strong definition of the club. We are famous for our brand of entertaining attacking football. Having just spent millions on world class training facilities we are hopefully trying to develop young talent, it's in our interests after all. While your idea about players wanting to play for the club is nice, I don't think it's realistic in today's game. Where we are now means we need to bring in the very best players that we can. Players will stay if we are successful but the top players will always succumb to offers of perceived glory elsewhere if we are not. This is a professional game and you can't get away from that fact. Selling Bale can be used to our advantage if the management is right, but until we win things we will never be able to hold on to the very top talent. It's a moving elevator and at the moment we are trying to climb the down side. If we run fast enough we just might make it to the top but some big bastard is always trying to push you off it. No easy answers, but we are closer to the top than we have been for years and I don't see why we can't get further up, Bale or no Bale.
Ask yourself how many players want to play for their team because of the team. Even people like West Ham who are excellent at nurturing through young talent, the players go to be successful and because West Ham rely heavily on their youth / reserve teams they dropped out of the premier league / will be relegation candidates. I think you actually have it backwards. You have to sign in players that can take you to the top of the game... as of that point your youth / reserve team players dream of playing for the first team squad which then leads to their development being better and them more likely wanting to stay and fight for a place even if other top teams come in for them. You list Dawson, Defoe and BAE wanting to stay till the end of their contracts... that's because we, at the time of them joining were a mid table team and they helped us rise to challenge the top 4 over a long(ish) period of time. That gives them an emotional attachment to the club. But realistically BAE Dawson and Defoe have reached their level which is why they are happy to stay. None of them would fit in any of the other top 4's starting 11s and thats why we need to push on, not get hung up on romantics.
Ironic that now we are finally showing more and more ambition in the transfer market, it is going to be probably all too late to keep hold of Bale. Maybe if we had shown more ambition a bit sooner we may now be in the CL and probably keeping hold of one of the best players in the world. So yes I agree, it is partly our own fault. I trust Levy to do the best for Spurs whatever happens, we improve year after year and will do so again whether Bale stays or goes.
Both valid answers I guess, but look at what Athletic Bilbao have achieved recently with local players. As spain have shown, you don't have to be able to tear a team to pieces with one players pace as we do now, you can teach people to have Pirlo's vision, and Spanish players' technique. How many of our (or English in general) players have that? We don't invest in players in the way we could. I admit we much better placed now that ever before in my time supporting, but that doesn't mean we cannot and should not do more.
Our youth system is better now than I can ever remember it being, but we're just not bridging that final gap between getting players ready and them breaking into the team. We'd have killed to be producing the likes of Caulker, Carroll, Townsend and some of the others until recently, but not that they're here they're either not used or moved on. Hopefully that we'll get past that soon and start to integrate them more readily, which might actually bring consistency and a bit of loyalty to the club.
I would have thought that the referees then were at least as culpable - you know the reason you are not allowed to state because everyone then says "sour grapes" - until of course their team is hit by the same sort of decisions going against them (or benefiting their rivals). The one debate the FA will not allow to happen. The single most important random factor in the game that is apparently OK because of things like "it all balances out of the course of a season" (er... no) etc. When two points makes the difference between a team getting into the CL or not, and the consequences of this event, then the ability of a ref to give a correct and unbiased decision I would suggest is at least as, if not often more important than the millions spent on squad development, the tactics employed by a manager and the efforts of a team on the pitch. The fact that in an industry worth millions (billions?) the results are determined by such a random and subjective element is utterly ludicrous, but over years we are encouraged to just accept it. Is there a better alternative - I am not completely sure, but I am sure that nobody appears to want to try to find out. Meanwhile the game continues to be run with ever increasing incompetence and corruption. I'm wondering if I'll eventually have enough of it. So in answer to the OP, yes it might well have been "our fault" if you examine only one side of the equation, but it is equally (and IMHO more) valid to say that with only two points between Bale staying and Bale leaving (perhaps, of course that might just be an excuse), there is a lot more to it.
If we don't sell Bale for a minimum of £85m then we are stupid. Apparently he WANTS to go...that is the deciding factor. Apparently it's been a childhood dream to play for them....therefore he would have wanted to go no matter what. What we have done well this time (unlike with Berbatov and Modric) is we've gone out and bought our players regardless without waiting for him to be sold...that is (in my opinion) what is making RM go so high in their offers.
This is a powerful argument and vimhawk is right, it is glossed over as a matter of no importance. 2 points are easily lost or gained over season by poor/biased/corrupt decisions from refs and the ramifications are enormous. Arsenal have been very lucky in recent seasons and Spurs have been very unlucky or have they? I am just a tad cynical that a game in which so much money is at stake is free from corruption.
I think that our "bad luck" with refs has more to do with the media and the way that certain clubs utilise it and get certain stories printed. Bale gained a reputation for diving and was punished repeatedly for being fouled. Ashley Young, on the other hand, was given a number of extremely dubious penalties. I'm going to go with Hanlon's Razor on this one. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Absolutely fantastic read SG, the part I've highlighted in bold is something I've been saying for years. Players that WANT to play for Spurs and not the potential success/ money Spurs can bring them, are those I value the most. Even though 2 out of the 3 you mentioned probably wouldn't be starters in my strongest XI right now (JD and Daws), the fact they want to be here and would likely sign a new contract everytime they were offered one is good enough for me. That's why I maintained throughout all of the season before last and before that, that Ledley should've been given a contract as and when he wanted (so to speak). I couldn't have given a toss if it meant he could only play 5-10 games because 1) Those 5-10 games we'd be considerably stronger and 2) His loyalty should be rewarded. The same goes to any player that wants to play for the shirt and not the money or future success. Of course it's been nice to have been able to bring players like Bale, Berbatov, Modric, van der Vaart and now Lloris, Vertonghen, Soldado, Paulinho etc to the club as it's fantastic to watch and to be able to see the progress Spurs have made to be able to attract such players is brilliant but ultimately, in an ideal world, I'd love for one day for Spurs to be able to field a strong, competitive starting XI that have either progressed through our academy or have made it clear that Spurs is the club they wish to finish their career with.
You're probably right, but stupidity is easier to justify than corruption and would suit the powers that be more.
I've been reading this in papers/ media lately that Madrid is the team he's dreamed about playing for. Funny that, because when he gave an interview with BBC or Sky (can't remember who) he actually said Italy was his preferred destination if he were to move abroad. Now unless Gareth didn't study georgraphy in school, something doesn't make sense here.
Wow, I really didn't see this going down this path, but you are absolutely right Vim. Just imagine where we would be had we had even 1pen last year! one draw that had been a win and we would have CL football and the leverage to buy Suarez had we still sold Bale to RM.
The most outrageous example for me was probably the Bale booking in the final game. It was such an obvious penalty and would've given Arsenal something to think about at St James'. Our opponents would've been down to 10 men and the pressure would've been on, though the damage had already been done, for the most part. A few minutes later one of their defenders blocked a shot with his arm and that didn't even feature on MOTD. Yet, what do we hear? Bale booked for diving, again.
Thanks! I was gutted at the thought of losing Bale, but now we have Soldado things are looking up. We have the striker we needed to replace his goals, so we are in a position of strength. 1st ---------------LLoris------------ Walker---Kaboul-----Verts-----*Coentrao --------------Sandro--------------- Paulinho-------------------Dembele----- Lennon-------Soldado---------Chadli----- 2nd team/ rotated ------------Brad (not that GK's need rotating- Naughton-----Daws----New CB----Benny/Rose ----------------Parker/Livermore---- Gylfi--------------------Holtby/Carrol ?????------Defoe/Ade-------Townsend Now that is looking to be a really good squad and that is without bale, or his replacements. I have only allowed for coentrao as A) we have made a bid (apparently) and B) I love him as a player and want him in our team / my FIFA team....
Yeah the team even without Bale is still a good squad but the way I see it, is adding them new signings WITH Bale in the side would make us great. Over the past few years the club has continuously tried building a side capable of challenging for the top 4 spots and we've come so damn close (even achieving it twice) despite seeing players like Carrick, Berbatov and Modric pinched off us, which has then forced us into umpteen transitional periods with new signings and management. As of right now, the bunch of players we currently have is the most talented I've seen at Spurs in my 23 years, we've added 3 top draw internationals to what is already a talented squad which contains what I and many others believe to be the 3rd best player in world football right now. If ever there was a time we could not only go for a top 4 spot but dare I say aim higher, this would be it. Utd have lost Fergie, City despite strenghthening don't look THAT much better, Arsenal have yet to strengthen and it leaves Chelsea who in my opinion are the team to beat this year. I believe there really is a space for us to exploit and "aim high" like the great Bill Nich once said, but selling Bale would, in my opinion, diminish those sort of hopes and just keep us to where we've been at the last few seasons in trying to scrap for that 4th spot. I'm not saying our hopes solely rely on Bale but a player like Bale can really be the difference. Take van Persie, Ronaldo, Messi etc out of their respected teams and while they'd still be a force, they won't be as strong and the same applies to us with Bale in my opinion.
Agreed, imagine if we still had Carrick, Berbs and Modric....that would be class. but you have to build to get to where we want to be. In other times we might well be there, but City and Chelsea are making that progress even harder...
£ity and £helsea along with PSG and Monaco etc have taken the true competitiveness out of the sport. Teams, like us try to build and build but when others come along and pretty much buy success, it ruins the beautiful game. Not only have they somewhat cheated to the top but because they splash the cash, it causes prices in the market to inflate which further more affects many other teams chances of strenghtening fairly. As for us, I think now really is the time where we're at a stage we're our building over the years can show some fruition, when you look at our squad and in particular our strongest XI when all are fit, there really isn't that many sides better than us in Europe, let alone the Prem.
