2013 Pre-season Mega Thread

[General Melchett]

i agree and i agree with northants too. the problem is, some people are negative about everything, no matter what happens. nothing wrong with being critical if you can also be positive too, especially if there is way more positive stuff happening, outweighing by a considerable distance the negative! it really, really, really grates after a while to read the same old miserable story when there is so much good going on around them

But being positive about everything may be a wonderful way to live, but it kind of loses its impact, I see positives, I see negatives. I will comment on both. I will also respect others contrary views.
But being honest I think you are a little over critical of anyone who has been negative and then not immediately changed their mind after you post endless positivity. Great in a way, but as unbalanced as all negative.
I can't wait for the New season and with the New faces I hope and think the football will be more entertaining, but I can't just ignore the previous dross and say it's definitely gonna be better!

Bah!

 

[DHCanary]

In regards to not changing the system/way we play and apologies if its already been covered, until we get another striker in we're kind of forced to stick with the 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 formations.

Unless we play becchio and rvw for 90 minutes every friendly or push someone like hoolahan or redmond further forward than they prefer to play we're limited to one up top.

If we're still playing ultra defensive and struggling to create chances when we get another striker in then I might question whether we'll see a change in tactics.

I don't think playing two strikers is necessarily the answer, looking at most Prem sides, they very rarely play with two out-and-out strikers. I think the mentality not the formation was the problem for large periods last season. In a 4-2-3-1, the '3' need to be given so much more freedom than they had last season. I'd like to see us allowing those players to drift all over the attacking third, the wingers should be allowed to move inside off the ball and link up with the CAM, and equally the CAM shouldn't feel he has to stay between the edges of the penalty box. If our DM pairing was Johnson and Fer, we'd have one player happy sitting back and clearing things up, and another with the pace to get forward and involved, but also rapidly track back should we lose possession. As a formation, I really don't see it as having to be negative, but when at times we've deployed Howson, Tettey and Johnson all seemingly as holding midfielders, that's when we seemed to suffer most.

 

[Northamptonncfc]

I don't think playing two strikers is necessarily the answer, looking at most Prem sides, they very rarely play with two out-and-out strikers. I think the mentality not the formation was the problem for large periods last season. In a 4-2-3-1, the '3' need to be given so much more freedom than they had last season. I'd like to see us allowing those players to drift all over the attacking third, the wingers should be allowed to move inside off the ball and link up with the CAM, and equally the CAM shouldn't feel he has to stay between the edges of the penalty box. If our DM pairing was Johnson and Fer, we'd have one player happy sitting back and clearing things up, and another with the pace to get forward and involved, but also rapidly track back should we lose possession. As a formation, I really don't see it as having to be negative, but when at times we've deployed Howson, Tettey and Johnson all seemingly as holding midfielders, that's when we seemed to suffer most.

I agree that was the reason why Holt was isolated and often Hoolahan was over worked but I think part of that was down to the other two central midfielders not being the most comfortable in possession, Snodgrass worked hard but I always found him played too wide and not given enough freedom, even though his great when his on fire there was games where I barely noticed Pilkington on the pitch, I do think the fullbacks will dictate how much freedom we give our wide players next season though.

 

[ColkOfTheBarclay]

I have to agree with Melchett et al. regards the negativity/positivity debate. Last season was dross for long periods, but, in those last 2 games (and maybe even Villa when we played pretty well but couldn't score), the players really showed what they could do. You can only hope that Hughton will carry that on now he is really stamping his mark on the team. We'll have to wait and see.

In regards to not changing the system/way we play and apologies if its already been covered, until we get another striker in we're kind of forced to stick with the 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 formations.

Unless we play becchio and rvw for 90 minutes every friendly or push someone like hoolahan or redmond further forward than they prefer to play we're limited to one up top.

If we're still playing ultra defensive and struggling to create chances when we get another striker in then I might question whether we'll see a change in tactics.

With regards to the formation, 4-2-3-1 isn't necessarily a defensive formation, it's just how the players are asked to play in those positions. Again, those last 2 games were brilliant, and it was the same formation as before. That is the last bit of competitive football I have seen from Norwich so that's what I would like to see next season. These friendlies are never gunna be at the highest standard. Obviously improvement would be nice but it is all working towards the first day of the new season. Got a long way yet.

 

[robbieBB]

I don't think playing two strikers is necessarily the answer, looking at most Prem sides, they very rarely play with two out-and-out strikers. I think the mentality not the formation was the problem for large periods last season. In a 4-2-3-1, the '3' need to be given so much more freedom than they had last season. I'd like to see us allowing those players to drift all over the attacking third, the wingers should be allowed to move inside off the ball and link up with the CAM, and equally the CAM shouldn't feel he has to stay between the edges of the penalty box. If our DM pairing was Johnson and Fer, we'd have one player happy sitting back and clearing things up, and another with the pace to get forward and involved, but also rapidly track back should we lose possession. As a formation, I really don't see it as having to be negative, but when at times we've deployed Howson, Tettey and Johnson all seemingly as holding midfielders, that's when we seemed to suffer most.

IMO DH you are describing exactly what Chris Hughton intends, and intended last season. I would add one thing to what you said, and that is that the forward three still have to be disciplined defensively when not in possession. In particular, whichever of the three find themselves out wide when the ball is lost have to provide cover for the full back on one side or the other. EG, if the opposition mount an attack down the right, the wide left in the three must close down the space in front of the left back. If that happens to be the CAM, then he does it, if it happens to be the RAM because he's moved across into space vacated by the LAM, then he does it. Just because you have the 2 in front of the back four doesn't mean that the forward 3 don't have to bother about defence. It is a matter of getting everybody used to the system and the players themselves finding the right balance and confidence to play it.

 

[DHCanary]

Yeah, although I'd argue that it needs only be the wide players. If we've got the wide men, and the back 6 all helping defensively, that 8 should still outnumber most attacks. The CAM could then be available to help break quickly on the ground when we win the ball back, rather than relying on long balls to an isolated striker.

 

[Northamptonncfc]

We'll have to see how fluidly the team works as a unit, we need to keep shape but still be mobile with the extra layers I think we should be sitting a lot more forward. I'm really hoping with Fer that the midfield finds someone who can spray the ball about neatly, that's the missing part of the puzzle for me, don't get me wrong Johnson and Tettey are great at breaking down attacks and running about, but their not the best passers of the ball and when in possession they like to get rid of it in comparison to someone like Fox for an example who'll slow it down and look for a pass, I mentioned earlier about Pilkington being vacant in games sometimes ,there have been a lot times I've seen him in standing in acres of space screaming for the ball but his never spotted. We'll see what happens but to me our problems last season were more supply based.

 

[RiverEndRick]

Excellent discussion, and very much getting to the heart of the matter. I never bought the argument that CH was insisting on 'defensive' tactics. What he wants is balanced possession football based on 'total football' tactics (ie. shifting from attack to defence when the ball is lost). Many players had difficulty adjusting to this much of the time, and tended to err on the defensive side when in doubt. Snodgrass was probably the best at this 'total football' approach. Like others, I hope that Fer will make the critical difference this season, as his abilities are well suited to the 'total football' approach, breaking up attacks, surging forward with the ball, passing intelligently, and then supporting the attack until the ball is lost, when he uses his pace to get back into the holding position again to break up attacks. Hopefully, this will help other players to play the 'total football' approach more effectively and produce the balance between attack and defence which CH is looking for. Add to that RvW up front, Olsson's pace to get forward in support and get back quickly, and Redmond's pacey option on either flank and the possibilities look even more encouraging.

 

[robbieBB]

Excellent discussion, and very much getting to the heart of the matter. I never bought the argument that CH was insisting on 'defensive' tactics. What he wants is balanced possession football based on 'total football' tactics (ie. shifting from attack to defence when the ball is lost). Many players had difficulty adjusting to this much of the time, and tended to err on the defensive side when in doubt. Snodgrass was probably the best at this 'total football' approach. Like others, I hope that Fer will make the critical difference this season, as his abilities are well suited to the 'total football' approach, breaking up attacks, surging forward with the ball, passing intelligently, and then supporting the attack until the ball is lost, when he uses his pace to get back into the holding position again to break up attacks. Hopefully, this will help other players to play the 'total football' approach more effectively and produce the balance between attack and defence which CH is looking for. Add to that RvW up front, Olsson's pace to get forward in support and get back quickly, and Redmond's pacey option on either flank and the possibilities look even more encouraging.

Spot on IMO. Last season the midfield struggled to find the right balance. Consequently, all too frequently, there was nobody in space to receive the ball out of defence, and particulary against teams pressing hard, no alternative but to boot the ball up to an isolated Holty. Those circumstances require not only someone to receive the (short) pass out of defence but defenders confident enough under pressure to pick out and find the man.

Since this is really O/T, maybe we could have a dedicated thread to carry on this particular discussion?

 

[robbieBB]

I have to agree with Melchett et al. regards the negativity/positivity debate. Last season was dross for long periods, but, in those last 2 games (and maybe even Villa when we played pretty well but couldn't score), the players really showed what they could do. You can only hope that Hughton will carry that on now he is really stamping his mark on the team. We'll have to wait and see.



With regards to the formation, 4-2-3-1 isn't necessarily a defensive formation, it's just how the players are asked to play in those positions. Again, those last 2 games were brilliant, and it was the same formation as before. That is the last bit of competitive football I have seen from Norwich so that's what I would like to see next season. These friendlies are never gunna be at the highest standard. Obviously improvement would be nice but it is all working towards the first day of the new season. Got a long way yet.

Colk I disagree with the bit I've highlighted. It doesn't just depend on how they are asked to play. It also depends (among other things such as levels of confidence, fitness etc.) on how comfortable they are playing it in the conditions and against the opponents they face on the day. In the case of the WBA and Man City games, people assume that Chris Hughton changed his instructions and "let them off the leash" while also claiming the opposition were already on the beach. In reality, in neither game did the opposition put us under the kind of consistent pressure to expose what RiverEndRick has alluded to, the fact that the players frequently had difficulty getting the balance right.

 

[Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed]

my 3 main points throughout last season were these:

1. losing ruddy had a major effect on the way we played. it may have been a subconscious decision but we visibly sat deeper in an attempt to protect bunn. we kept 6 clean sheets in ruddy's 15 games - that's a brilliant record.

2. there was a lack of confidence following a very difficult christmas period which we never truly recovered from. i'm not just talking about the players or manager here, i'm talking about the fans too. there was a poor atmosphere at home games and the smallest little mistakes were leapt upon, players went into their shells, and a manager unable to change matches from the bench because of a lack of depth and faith in those players.

3. our passing was dire 2nd half of the season. this was down to a lack of confidence but mainly because these players have never been great passers. even under lambert we played quite direct and although the passing wasn't as bad as what we saw 2nd half of last season, we often saw their limits in this respect.

this 'letting them off the leash' stuff has always been total nonsense. yes they played in a more refined manor - this was because the manager wanted to see a more rigid defensive unit (which by the way, will help us enormously in the long run as we build further forward). our best players were the defensive minded players - ruddy, bassong, turner, martin, johnson... even snodgrass, our best attacking player, works hard defensively. next season the aim is for a more balanced approach, more pace on the counter attack, better passers of the ball, hopefully one or two more creative players too. we aren't going to be brilliant to watch overnight but we will have more strings to our bow than just being difficult to beat, and this is what i've been stressing for god knows how long!

 

[RiverEndRick]

Spot on Supers on all three points. Confidence is the key in PL football. Against WBA, there was an almost tangible surge in confidence when Ruddy strode out onto the pitch, and then when Snodgrass scored, the confidence surged again and City continued to press their advantage home. There was no 'un-leashing' by CH, the players un-leashed themselves as their confidence rose and the passing improved. The new players added already and those to come will take this further throughout next season. There will be disappointment as well at times, but not so often as last year.

 

[Northamptonncfc]

These players are playing at such a high level that they should really have all the self belief in the world, I understand how players are terrified when taking penalties because it's down to an individual but as a team on the pitch you have each other.

 

[Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed]

These players are playing at such a high level that they should really have all the self belief in the world, I understand how players are terrified when taking penalties because it's down to an individual but as a team on the pitch you have each other.

confidence doesn't work like that, as we know.

players confidence can be erratic and not necessarily be high or dip at the same time as their team mates!

torres is the perfect example of this

 

[Northamptonncfc]

confidence doesn't work like that, as we know.

players confidence can be erratic and not necessarily be high or dip at the same time as their team mates!

torres is the perfect example of this

I suppose it depends on the individual and I agree some people have fragile personalities but standing up in front of 10,000's of people takes confidence itself you've almost reached the highest level of football, you should go out on the pitch and never give a toss what other people think of you, I know that would be a difficult mindset for some people to adopt but these players have been relatively successful and they should always remember that. The biggest doubt for me and player confidence if you think in your head your going to screw things up 90% of the time you will do. The fear and nerves will always be there in the background but it's how you deal with it and the more familiar something becomes the more better it gets, there are sports psychologists who can help that and so long as your team mates have your back it helps.

Torres has won a World Cup, two Euro's, the Champions League, FA cups and has scored 206 career goals, if some group of overweight 50 year olds want to start screaming and jeering because you miss a six yard sitter you'd have to think to yourself I'd like to see you lads do what I've done in my career then you can come back and say something or you'd just ignore them because their not worth the dirt on your boots.

One club I'm interested in seeing the confidence levels in this season is Sunderland, at work one of colleagues said you can either see them running out grabbing teams by the jugular and putting them away comfortably or cowering in fear scared about putting a foot wrong.

 

[I_Clean_holtys_boots]

We lose 1-0 away to a team half way round the world and half way through there season....


Villa are 2 down to Luton

 

[carrabuh]

Excellent discussion, and very much getting to the heart of the matter. I never bought the argument that CH was insisting on 'defensive' tactics. What he wants is balanced possession football based on 'total football' tactics (ie. shifting from attack to defence when the ball is lost). Many players had difficulty adjusting to this much of the time, and tended to err on the defensive side when in doubt. Snodgrass was probably the best at this 'total football' approach. Like others, I hope that Fer will make the critical difference this season, as his abilities are well suited to the 'total football' approach, breaking up attacks, surging forward with the ball, passing intelligently, and then supporting the attack until the ball is lost, when he uses his pace to get back into the holding position again to break up attacks. Hopefully, this will help other players to play the 'total football' approach more effectively and produce the balance between attack and defence which CH is looking for. Add to that RvW up front, Olsson's pace to get forward in support and get back quickly, and Redmond's pacey option on either flank and the possibilities look even more encouraging.

What on earth are you talking about, you honestly think we were trying to play "total football". I think you need to look at what the term means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Football

We were the absolute antithesis of it.

Fixed, rigid, structured, fixed roles. I'm sorry but I'm really assuming you didn't know what total football is to say such a thing.

 

[DHCanary]

Yeah, have to say it's not really total football, although I suppose if you were to say the aim was to have a front 4 playing in that way, you'd be closer to the mark. That link led me onto Catenaccio, and then Zona Mista though, which I thought looked interesting:

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I think we've actually got players who'd fit that kind of system, particularly if we were to sign someone like Quagliarella as the second striker, who may have played in this predominately Italian system.

 

[Canary Rob]

To be fair to RER, Carrabuh, in your own link there is an acknowledgement that Total Football is now sometimes used to mean a different thing (albeit incorrectly in the technical, 1970s Dutch, sense).

As long as it is acknowledged and clear that Total Football is meant in the more recent sense, it is a succinct way of describing a tactical design rather than having to iterate it completely and I have no problem with RER using that. I can't imagine for a moment he was seriously proposing that Hughton's aim is to have everyone capable of playing in multiple positions and a highly flexible system.

 

[carrabuh]

my 3 main points throughout last season were these:

1. losing ruddy had a major effect on the way we played. it may have been a subconscious decision but we visibly sat deeper in an attempt to protect bunn. we kept 6 clean sheets in ruddy's 15 games - that's a brilliant record.

2. there was a lack of confidence following a very difficult christmas period which we never truly recovered from. i'm not just talking about the players or manager here, i'm talking about the fans too. there was a poor atmosphere at home games and the smallest little mistakes were leapt upon, players went into their shells, and a manager unable to change matches from the bench because of a lack of depth and faith in those players.

3. our passing was dire 2nd half of the season. this was down to a lack of confidence but mainly because these players have never been great passers. even under lambert we played quite direct and although the passing wasn't as bad as what we saw 2nd half of last season, we often saw their limits in this respect.

this 'letting them off the leash' stuff has always been total nonsense. yes they played in a more refined manor - this was because the manager wanted to see a more rigid defensive unit (which by the way, will help us enormously in the long run as we build further forward). our best players were the defensive minded players - ruddy, bassong, turner, martin, johnson... even snodgrass, our best attacking player, works hard defensively. next season the aim is for a more balanced approach, more pace on the counter attack, better passers of the ball, hopefully one or two more creative players too. we aren't going to be brilliant to watch overnight but we will have more strings to our bow than just being difficult to beat, and this is what i've been stressing for god knows how long!

See, now this is why I have issues with so many things you say pyjamas, its the sheer whim of changing your opinion to suit the present.

I had countless arguments with yourself explaining the lack of passing and technique of the players signed during Lamberts premier league season but you were adamant the players were technically good and could pass a ball. Lo and behold we now find you agreed with me all along but were afraid to say so.


I had arguments with you about how crap League One was when were looking at those players, you were adamant about the qualities of the Division, I've subsequently found on one of the other boards you admitting how poor the quality is, even though you watch a lot of it.

Look at the people your blaming for last season, Ruddy injured, confidence, fans leaping on the backs of players, lack of depth. Yet not the slightest single hint of the manager being to blame. I mean what do you think he does at the club if he bares no responsibility to how the players react to games?

You cannot just pick the good things out and apply them to Hughton just as I cannot just pick out the bad things and do the same.

And please don't give it the refined bullshit, it was not refined, it was downright pitifully basic way to play.