1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

The good auld US justice system.

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by BBFs Unpopular View, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. Or encouraged him via rage. I've been walking home (via an alleyway) after being at the pub when a bloke jumped out (obviously thinking it was youngsters as he shouted "what you youngsters doing here at this time") with a knife. One of the lads attacked him and left him in his own conservatory. The lad that did it had been in the army and it was a natural instinct, he also pointing out that he had a knife expecting to be youngsters! #**** <doh>
     
    #21
  2. BBFs Unpopular View

    BBFs Unpopular View Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Messages:
    22,301
    Likes Received:
    1,658
    Big difference between a firearm and a knife though.


    And for the record, the Irish justice system is just as ****ed as the US justice system <grr> Police who had helped priests cover up **** crimes won't even face court<grr> The Irish justice system is a ****ing joke

    I just get the feeling that if Zimmerman had shot a white working man with a few kids he'd have got manslaughter at the least.
     
    #22
  3. True, just pointing out that people react to things differently. some may be sensible and back off, others will get angry and some will want to be the hero <ok>
     
    #23
  4. Lucaaas

    Lucaaas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    3,980
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16423278

    Hmmm...
     
    #24
  5. Lucaaas

    Lucaaas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    3,980
    O.J. Simpson was found not guilty of the murder of two white people. Is it anything to do with race? I'm not sure, it just shows that the justice system doesn't always work in my opinion.
     
    #25
  6. DirtyFrank

    DirtyFrank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2011
    Messages:
    26,647
    Likes Received:
    8,514
    http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/race-plays-complex-role-in-floridas-stand-your-ground-law/1233152

    Here's some folks who appear to have actually researched the racial stats of the application of the 'stand your ground' law rather than the usual bandwagon jumping. Sorry I was hungover this morning so only got round to looking into this further.

    Someone can repost link as I'm Iphoning it.

    Maybe our US friends can state that this paper has WASP leaning tendencies but my quick check found they've won 9 Pulitzer Prizes in their history, one for fact checking claims spouted by US politicians.

    Interesting info on one of the cases being compared. It doesn't sound quite as clear cut just as I suspected but why let facts get in the way of a crusade. Fortunately juries are instructed to do exactly that.

    I do not doubt injustices, some on racial grounds occur both in Florida and the US (just like here) but this comparing two completely separate cases with very different circumstances purely down to "white got away with it black didn't" is moronic and yet again does a dis-service to any fight for equality where institutions fail to uphold it.
     
    #26
  7. LuisDiazgamechanger

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    38,506
    Likes Received:
    7,251
    The Law is an ass (arse) O.J Simpson clearly guilty.<ok>
     
    #27
  8. BCR

    BCR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    23,258
    Likes Received:
    744
    Did enough of what I would have answered with. For every Rodney King there is an OJ Simpson. Can't be naive enough to understand that ya there is still some racist undertones in certain cases ( Jerome gets more time than Jeremy is a common line used), but it can also come down to class/status as the OJ case showed.

    Then Sisu, you come out (again) with this anti-US campaign but then backtrack in "Ireland is similar". Ya it may be ( and my points every time you bring up one of these threads) but you had another go at the US first. Again, every single country has ****ed up **** going on, still not sure on your intentions if I am honest mate. If you want to keep walking this line it is a dangerous ****ing game. Maybe I should go and find everything wrong with Ireland and make a thread about it every week?
     
    #28
  9. Thus Spake Zarathustra

    Thus Spake Zarathustra GC Thread Terminator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    27,454
    Likes Received:
    14,446
    America has done some ****ing horrible things in the last century (have you had chance to watch Oliver Stone's Untold history yet), but probably not as bad as Britain did in the 19th century when they were top dogs, definitely not as bad as Spain @ 14/15th century - especially in what is now Latin America - and I'll wager nowhere near as bad as what China will put our Western great-grandchildren through in the latter half of this century. For a country that constantly witters about Britain's history of the Irish (indeed dreadful) the holocaust suffered by native Americans is conveniently forgotten. But all said, it would be either a Soviet or Nazi world we'd all be living in now if it wasn't for the US, and for that we should be grateful.

    Got to ask this last question though Bluff; does the Constitutional right to bear arms not mean that, as a US citizen, you are allowed to have a nuclear ICBM in your back yard?
     
    #29
  10. BCR

    BCR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    23,258
    Likes Received:
    744
    You answered a lot of my gripe with Sisu, we have all ( top dogs in whatever century_) done ****ed up ****. It happens when you're country wants to be that king on the hill. When the Chinese become the next top dog, they will probably have some horrible **** they will do. Nuclears in the backyard? How literal are we taking this second amendment, I would think that back in the day that would have included a shiv/bayonette and a gun, but if we are modernizing it, I don't work in politics so can't really answer that. I am sure and wouldn't doubt that they are housed somewhere in the US.
     
    #30

  11. Red Baron

    Red Baron Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    950
    Likes Received:
    55
    No, it does not mean that. Nor does it mean any Dick or Jane can own a gun. Not even going over technicalities (second amendment includes the term well-regulated militia,) the right to bear arms doesn't mean everyone can go out and buy one. You have to pass checks (mental, criminal history, etc...), pay for a permit, and have a clear reason for owning one (SMG's are not given permits if I recall correctly). Guns for protection are mostly limited to handguns and shotguns, no semi-automatic guns. On your question, no single person would be given a permit for a nuclear weapon, as no person would have a logical need for one. Military is a whole different ballgame, and they are the only ones with access to it (aside from home-made ones, obviously.)
     
    #31
  12. K3

    K3 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    4
    That's only true partially.

    You only get background/mental health checks when you buy from a registered gun shop. If you were to go to a gun convention, it's as simple as handing over money for the weapons.

    This is a well known fact, a lot about this came out when they were talking about that school shooting back in December.
     
    #32
  13. BBFs Unpopular View

    BBFs Unpopular View Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Messages:
    22,301
    Likes Received:
    1,658
    reading through more on the case with Zimmerman, he was following the teenager who had done nothing wrong. The kid didnt appreciate this and Zimmerman had no right to be following him in any official capacity and probably confronted him or Martin confronted Zimmerman, who is a wannabe cop, no marks whatsoever on Martin and given the hand and facial injuries to Zimmerman that is not possible.

    I firmly believe Zimmerman shot the kid then had someone put a beat on him after the shooting.

    The kid went out to get a snack and because he was black Zimmerman brought about a situation that ended in the kid dying. This was very racial in manner.

    I am also fairly certain the fact the kid's profile also lead to Zimmerman not facing any charges whatsoever.

    A ****ing joke of a verdict

    and now
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0715/462487-zimmerman-may-face-federal-charges-over-shooting/
     
    #33
  14. BBFs Unpopular View

    BBFs Unpopular View Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Messages:
    22,301
    Likes Received:
    1,658

    Excuse me but this is a forum, so much for your proclaimed free speech.

    If I don't like things about the US what has it ****ing to do with you? Are you one of those tools who have this idiotic patriotic streak?

    I do not even for a second take anything personally when talking about Ireland, facts are facts, why you have a gripe with me over how I see certain things about the US, it is not your country, you live there yet you ****ing whinge as if I am talking of a relative of yours.

    The majority of the ****ing world hates the country you live in so your gripe is misplaced.

    I never made this about Americans, yet you seem to want to make this personal between you and I. Stick your gripe up yer backside m8



    Nice show of tolerance of other opinions btw, really nice<ok>


    Edit: If you are gonna go making it personal with all and sundry re negative opinions on the US on the internet you will be one busy ****ing man
     
    #34
  15. DirtyFrank

    DirtyFrank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2011
    Messages:
    26,647
    Likes Received:
    8,514
    The experts (at least one; I've read a few more but can't be bothered with the repetition)seem to disagree:


    http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1398739#bmb=1

    At the end of the day you can say the stand your ground law is a bad law, you can say the conceal and carry law is a bad law. You can say that the two together allow paranoid trigger happy people (and Zimmerman may well be one) to shoot people with relative impunity.

    What you can't do is subvert the correct laws like "a right to a fair trial" a right for the prosecution to have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt guilt to a jury of the charges levelled at a defendant . An insistence that if the jury does not believe the prosecution has done that they give a"not guilty" verdict.

    The legal experts knew this I.e the Police and local DA. They new under the current laws that they wouldn't get a conviction which is why they didn't charge him for six weeks. Their mistake was later ignoring that knowledge, bowing to special interest groups and charging him anyway that has continued this feeling of injustice.

    The verdict was correct. People should be concentrating on removing the law that made that verdict correct not asking a jury to ignore the law so that everyone can feel better with their latest cause célèbre.

    Interesting question for you going on the evidence provided in my first link:
    out of over two hundred cases only a handful were multi racial shootings and out of those found not guilty where was this furore about "wrong verdicts" then? Is it not as important if you get away with a white on white murder or even a black on black?

    thousands of gun related deaths happen in the US each year with many cases thrown out, not brought and not guilty verdicts returned. Why have these two cases been spotlighted and more importantly why have they been spotlighted so incorrectly regarding the facts of the cases. Again the answer undermines the fight people claim to be making.
     
    #35
  16. Red_Pheonix

    Red_Pheonix Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    4
    Sisu, 2 + 2 = 5 - if you want it to! You weren't there at the time; you only have 3rd party reports to work with; you didn't hear all the testimony in court; you don't know any of the jurors; YET you appear to be able to accuse them of being stupid or racist or both regarding their verdict.

    I don't know US federal or State law here but I feel confident that if there is a legal reason to review and/or overturn this courts decision then the dead man's relatives will use it. If not then we have to accept that LEGALLY the decision of this court stands. It matters not what you, me or anybody-else thinks.
     
    #36
  17. BBFs Unpopular View

    BBFs Unpopular View Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Messages:
    22,301
    Likes Received:
    1,658
    The constitution allows for militias to bear arms not individuals, that has been distorted to allow guns to be sold to everyone.

    And as for the stuff about what England has done in the past or the US for that matter, pfff, it is the current stuff and recent stuff that pisses me off. The only reason Israel can continue its genocidal actions is because of US support. The administration that indirectly controlled and allowed death squads to kill kids and me alike in Iraq. The support of murderous bastard dictators in South America and Africa.

    the daily death in Iraq and Afghanistan is a direct result of US actions. Libya's death tolls have multiplied many times over since intervention. The US administration and devious ****ing intelligence and military services are responsible to destabilization and death on a grand scale today, not in the past.

    I've never made this about the American people which Bluff seems to not get, my mate Drew from NJ but living in Ireland now is a source of much information on the US and the evil **** they are doing, like the testing new weapons on Iraqis, white phosphorous attacks on Iraqi residential areas indiscriminately killing, rules of engagement that result in many civilian deaths. the ****ing drones! Economic destabilization of countries instigating civil wars to oust the current unfriendly rulers for more friendly ones which results in the butchery of many people as with Libya. All of the real ****ing tragedies that happen in places where there is no gain for the US, they have sat back and let it happen so there is not a shred of humanitarian action in the **** they do abroad. A strong policy of never fight a war on their own turf, something Americans have not suffered yet their military go and destroy other countries and kill civilians aplenty.

    The hypocrisy of saying countries cant have nukes or do nuke research when they have the worlds largest nuclear arsenal and are the only nation to use them, twice and are most likely the nation to next use them, Cheney "Turn the desert to glass" or something like that I believe he said. I am obviously not a fan of anyone having nukes but wit the countries that have nukes telling others they can't, it just doesn't make sense. If pushed to a certain point in a grave situation the US administration will use nukes. Nukes exist because nukes exist, one side has them the other sides will need their own, if the rest of the world destroyed their nukes the US administration will still have some just in case, that is a undeniable fact.

    As for the WW2 comments, completely incorrect, the USSR paid the price in full for the defeat of the Nazis in blood. Even without US trucks and grain the end result was undeniable. Germany just did not have the resources or man power and the minute they attacked Russia the war was over for them, never mind the fact that Hitler was drugged out of his mind for the last few years and had totally lost touch with reality.

    Ironic though we hear about the crimes of Guernica and Warsaw bombings by the Nazis yet we see total justification of far worse bombings of Tokyo Dresden and the nukes dropped on Japan thereafter. one classed as evil war crimes and the other the right thing to do<doh>
     
    #37
  18. Red_Pheonix

    Red_Pheonix Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    4
    These a just observations regarding the above post.

    The liturgy of US 'crimes' is perhaps only matched by those supposedly committed by the UK. However, it could also be argued that it's merely a matter of scale and publicity that differentiates the US actions from any previous nation that has assumed world leadership status. So let's sound off at the Romans, Monguls, Persians, chinese, etc. etc.

    The Russians did not turn round their situation by themselves. If it were not for the Allied support that they received and the operations in other theatres, the German advance would have taken Moscow and then all bets would have been off! Your analysis is strategically simple.

    Finally, why are you getting so het-up? The season will start soon and we need all our strength for that <ok><hug>
     
    #38
  19. DirtyFrank

    DirtyFrank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2011
    Messages:
    26,647
    Likes Received:
    8,514
    Sisu, I only vaguely remember previous clashes between you and Bluff (& Red Baron) but they had valid questions regarding this thread:

    The title is "Good Auld US justice system" a definite play on the "good old boys" stereotype. You then go on about "whitey" in your OP. you made it clear between the two that you believed the US justice system was racist and that's how these two verdicts came about.

    The facts of each case prove you incorrect. Zimmerman may well have been racist but that's not the issue or reason for the not guilty verdict. The bad law is. Furthermore the stats regarding convictions and protections under that law show blacks and whites are not treated differently within it. It's been a very naughty game hand picking these 2 cases out of hundreds to use as evidence of a racial issue. And band wagoners like yourself have been caught out by it.

    As to the more general point about you being Anti American (as in the state) your previous threads suggest that you are and you have a perfect right (as you stated) to express that.

    Both the US boys also had a right to suggest that it's unfair to continually shine a spot light on one countries misdemeanors when those faults still exist in pretty much every country in the world including your own.

    To say you are allowed to attack their country because "everyone hates them" and yet they are somehow unreasonable in attempting to defend it or at least widen the the spot light onto everyone's is a little unfair. The old open forum for me not for you argument.

    I suggest Bluff can personalize it to you because you are the one repeatedly making the Anti American comments on the board that includes Americans. If someone else makes similar statements or creates similar threads I would guess he would then defend his country to them as well.


    Just saying like......

    Anyone want to bash wee Northern Ireland? We're in silly season again. The "loyalists" are so loyal they try to burn the state police officers they're loyal to, to death because they can't walk down a bit of road. Last year it was the nationalists doing the same thing because they did walk down that bit of road. Each time the community leaders call for demonstrations then back track when funny enough those demonstrations are with bricks & petrol bombs. It would be a farce if me the tax payer didn't have to clean up these tossers back yards afterwards.

    Only in my country will you have assembly representatives knocked out by missiles thrown by the people he represents and other representatives hugging the front of police landrovers in attempt be a one man road block lol....it's relatively embarrassing.
     
    #39
  20. saintanton

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    39,780
    Likes Received:
    27,848
    There have been too many points raised here to effectively address them all. Some of the accusations levelled at the U.S. are true, some are hearsay without any real evidence, and some are just wrong, imo. Anyway, similar accusations could be levelled at any number of nations, groups, organisations, whatever, at various times.
    The U.S. are not a nation of demons any more than we or any other. We all have good and bad, and there are enough incidents to let us conveniently highlight those that support our pre-conceived conclusions.
    All I can say is; an unmitigated hatred of a whole people, for whatever reasons, is one of the factors that start wars in the first place.
     
    #40

Share This Page