There's a nugget of wisdom. I suggest all fans saying walk before... GET YOUR LFC AMBITION BACK!!! I honestly think people are far to scarred by goings on and are beaten down... yes you are... so pick yourselves up and start acting like big time charlies. Our club should be the best an we need to demand the best. LFC can accept wishing for 4th or they can think about the top. Oh and as for the comment "Did Chelsea really go in thinking of the title?2 too bloody right they did. cos frankly with the CL in their pocket and hazard, mata et al if they were thinking of just top 4 then RA soon put that right! The owner sacks guys for anything short of the very top! There's a world of difference between chelsea and arsenal... arsenal hoped for 4th and scraped in. spurs aimed for it and fialed. Chelsea wanted the title and filed getting 3rd.... and a europa... nobody is happy...
No team intentionally goes out at the start of a season aiming for 4th. I think that the 4th place trophy comment by Wenger has been taken way way out of context and misused and abused in a variety of contexts. If you feel Wenger and the fans are happy finishing 4th, think again. However it must be used as a springboard to further success. I think that if you look at how we've performed since buying a new stadium and being self financed, it has given us a foundation to build from, rather than spending money we don't have to try and achieve something we might not gain anyway, given the financial clout of the teams above us.
I know the real arsenal fans are sick and tired of 4th but the evidence is your players celebrated like they won a cup yesterday. You have hit the nail on the head as saying use it as a spring board, perhaps its taken time to pay down to the point where that stadium and such allows you to spend i don't know but i have to say since chelsea came on the scene you've not build at all on the position. We've seen a terribly poor league last season where had RVP stayed at arsneal for example... who know! he might be going on a free but with a trophy or whatever.... i find that the clubs with "clout" waste so much money that they can't put a real team out and football is all about real teams
As a club we should always be aiming for the top Yes the spending power of those above us is a hurdle but when you think of the money we've wasted in the last two decades it's not about spending power it's about spending our budget wisely. Stop surrounding very good players with average ****e.We have a lot of potential when you look at a full strength first team. However take the squad as a whole and we're weak. I can't remember the last time I looked at our match day team and bench and thought we look strong in every position. Considering the money we spend that's just not good enough!
I think they know that being in the CL brings its own rewards and is therefore not something to be scoffed at. That and finishing above our hated rivals. The problem is not Arsenal's approach to the top 4, it's the way that top 4 has become synonymous with some kind of financial incentive and that is why teams will risk life and limb to get into those coveted positions. For that, you will have to blame the footballing authorities. I think the money we have gained from these past seasons in the CL has enabled us to pay off our stadium debt while remaining competitive. Also teams near the top of the table appear better to potential signings.
The clubs that have as their goal - lifting the title, are the clubs that have a realistic chance of doing so, as their resources / set up / squad, are on a par with the best in the division. As there's a massive difference between a dream & a goal....
do not merge threads. one is about all clubs and 4th place and the OTHER is about next season and injecting a bit of optimism about this place. ................... big bird, that is a very good point. Putting the resources, set up and such towards winning the title as opposed to dreaming is an excellent way to put the point. If we beleive that chelsea and city and utd to some extent can simply go buy all the world every year then why ge tout of bed? The reality is they can make mistakes so I think the club that puts its resources towards having a squad and team capable of winning doesn't mean putting 50mil players on the pitch no matter what. The fact is say 8/10 times you might fall short but how did teams break the barca/real hold on lal liga sometimes? build a real team, don't make mistakes but show ambition, real ambition. Its like 2010, benitez tried his hardest to win the europa, other teams tried their hardest to get out of it. This is why with respect LFC are wasters. If you look at the absolute waste of cash in carroll, downing, aquilani, keane. ther eis a good 20mil cash per year to spend. If you look a great squad from 2009 and spent 20mil per year WISELY you'd still have a geat squad and that would be before sales like alonso or torres. LFC added sturridge and coutinho for about 20.5mil in january. huge improvement. add another 20mil.... maybe you get closer. maybe you believe finally. If arsenal on the other hand really believe in themselves they would translate the efforts made to get to get out of the groups inthe CL into cup runs domestically. It seems every year arsenal throw away the cups resting players. Is this not saying hey we think its too important to focus on the league I don't know. what i do know is the side that put 16 good players together and really believes is going to be the side that next breaks the top 4, its either that OR some other arab is going to buy west ham once they move to the olympic stadium then sell out 500mil and buy 4th... it took city how long to break in? now it seems everyone things they have a spot by right... why?
With the greatest of respect, for the three years after Statler and Waldorf took over, they invested £39mil initially, then nothing for the following three seasons. No sign of the needed £20mil per season. Had they done so, Rafa might just have been able to get the extra 4 points we needed in 08/09. But its the past now. Future is what counts. We need reasonable investment, not megabucks. I reckon £20-25mil spent carefully (CB and creative deep midfielder) should see the redmen make the breakthrough to CL positions, get us the profile to get the players who want CL involvement, and push on for the PL in 14/15 perhaps...
st john.... mascherano and skertl cost 17mil and 8mil respectively.. in january for rafa after torres and benayoun and babel came. then keane and reira and dossena and cavileiri for 40mil odd... offset of course by crouch doing one. rsiise and carson also left then aquilani!! 20 mil and jonhson for 17mil... and in this case the one off was alonso going for 31mil... not to mention arbeloa... Those two robbing B's did is all on bank loans bu the money was there. we never found out where the 20 or so mil we were told was there for players went when suddenly all rafa could afford was kygiakos on 1.5mil. However you see the point. there was moeny there to be spent. then FSG took over. again tis been a combination of one off sells and cloud by that but if you take them on face value that suarez was always coming i think its safe to say we've got that net 20mil there to spend.... The important point is you said the same as me. Spend the relatively big amount of money well and we can compete. My point is you must go for the top not just CL. If you added a hyppia and alonso which at the time would have been <15mil to our current set up the team would again improve no end. simple.
MITO - you're right to acknowledge the cash that's been wasted at Liverpool being key, as it quite simply is the main reason why you've under performed in recent years. Even despite "dem Yanks", over the last 5 years, out of the teams currently above you in the League, you've only been outspent - both Gross & Net - by City & Chelsea. So you've had the resources, but you've just not used them well. It's no wonder really that FSG were so keen to put some more science (& considered judgement) behind player investment, as by rights i.e. cash spent, you should be challenging.
big bird, at least I have you to acknowledge i'm right IMO we've loads of cash and the way its spent is far more important than whether is 60mil or 20mil. 20 mil well spent beats seeing chelsea put hazard and lukau out to pasture. in other words 2 of the "big 3" spend it like water and the trickle down effect raises all boats (see us basically handing 35mil of torres see to newkie as charity) You can't beat chelsea truring up to take a parker, a sidwell or a sinclair off your hands.... And I'm SURE swansea are rubbing thier hands with glee thinking fo another 15mil to buy 4 players with for williams to follow up last years kindly donation from LFC. when LFC do good work to be proud of I applaud with the rest, coutinho, sturridge, ibe, sterling for example... suso, enrique, even henderson despite the price. but when we go do idiotic moves like downing, carroll, aquilani, keane, allen, borini... this is just terrible nonsense. Roll on the big transfer window action I say. lets see if LFC have learned finally.
just curious mito, did you have the same opinion of Henderson all the way through from the start or did you give him time to improve ie a season under his belt before judging?, as you haven't given Allen or Borini a season to improve, you have written them off already, just seams a bit odd.
no i was fairly happy at the start with him, once i took a couple of games to look at him. his attitude, work rate and enterprise means that what he's doing now is no surprise. he's a little dirk kuyt. My problem with allen is not the type of game he might play when fit cos it was "decent" but i found him tactically naive, oh he was the one guy sprinting back when others gave up but thats the issue. he was stuck into a DM role and was off pup the pitch or he'd drift under stuff instead of backing off. here's an example...look at league cup, swansea away. Swansea clear a corner and allen is back defending. He instead of backing off to allow others get back he commits himself under the ball gets easily beat and the goal goes in tie over. He's got to do a lot more for me. In short not worth 15mil. Same for borini, the guy could find a few nice positions no question but his finishing was atrocious and i found him light weight compared to the player rodgers said he was. I don't think he's a left side player... theres something a bit special in henderson's attitude that attracts me to justify the fee, I simply don't see the same in borini for sure. I can only see him hopefully on the bench while sturridge and suarez play. Then is he the go to impact sub? nope. not tall nor lightening quick to change the game. Allen i think can be neat, tidy, effective, can learn but i could say the same about spearing. I think neither are disasters of players totally but i'd rather the 26mil back PLEASE! that 26 mil could buy someone really special. henderson, shelvey at the club... unknowns to rodgers... he went for the familiar face... pushed spearing out. wouldn't you rather see that 26mil employed on one top player?.... leaving out hindsight on injuries and such.
Wake up and sniff the Columbian (no, not that Columbian, I meant the coffee) - Staler & Waldorf spent the grand total of £25mil over three and a half seasons. £39.85mil was spent on their first season, then £6.25 in 08/09, raised a profit of £8.65mil in 09/10 and before the takeover in 10/11, Hodgson traded a summer profit for them of £7.35mil. (source: Transerferleague.co.uk) All the money invested in just one season, thereafter nearly nothing. Sunderland, Spurs, Citeh, Chelski spent more over that period. You can't run a team on fumes and expect to make progress - look at Arsenal or Everton - the best you can acheive is status quo.
I think the net spend has been influenced by instability - managers leaving, sliding down the table, big players leaving. We've always been under pressure to plug a gap or find some quick solution. At United, Fergie knew his squad, shaped it and could make considered, long term buys - which would surely save money.
Also, Fergie was always in a position to ADD to his squad. Big overhaul changes are rare at Utd due to the stability he provided. We've had to rebuild everytime a new manager comes in. I hope we stick with Rodgers for a while
look i have pointed out what i've pointed out. large one off sales and a lot fo expensive guys coming in as well. we simply are not i nthe same boat even under g&H as some who just didn't have cash.... had alonso not been run out of dodges we'd still have spent. thats my opinion. what i still don't knwo is where those missing funds vanished too of course. like it as not its high time we stopped this poor mouthing and just took a look at other clubs. the points made were about STABILITY and ADDING not revolutionising as very well made. I can only put aquilani down to gambling or risk taking o nrafa's part and carroll as pure panic. there is NO excuse for downing. Stable clubs, in terms at least of policy... spurs are run by levy who decides and keeps a hand on it. Ferguson built his, wenger decides his... RA just throws money left and right on whims.. thats his poilicy. Unfortunatley LFC have changed tack 5 times, G&h borrow, G&H make rafa suffer, Purslow decides he can do it, Comolli, Rodgers on his own, the new transfer committee. Chances are if we take a strong hold of things at the top level, by which i mean budget, wage structure strategy.. be consistent with it. instigate a policy of youth ok but performing youth not risks and then not let somse faceless no nothing go out and pick his flavour of the month (joe cole) finally jsut a note, i read this isn the echo iverpool FC are set to launch a £12million bid to sign Schalke centre-back Kyriakos Papadopoulos. The Reds have identified the 21-year-old Greek international as their No 1 target to replace Jamie Carragher. Papadopoulos missed the second half of the Bundesliga season after undergoing surgery on his left knee back in December but has now recovered and Liverpool have no concerns over his long-term fitness. Manchester City, Chelsea and Atletico Madrid have also been linked with the highly-rated 6ft defender but the Reds are ready to act fast in the hope of winning the battle for his services. Physically strong, comfortable in possession and dominant in the air, Papadopoulos has jumped above Swansea City's Ashley Williams and Ajax's Toby Alderweireld on the club's wish list of centre-backs. The ECHO understands Liverpool are no longer interested in Williams with the Welsh club's £12million price tag for a player who turns 29 in August leading to them pursuing other options which provide better value. everything great unitl you read... SAME OLD RISKS... THE GUYS BEEN INJURED, BUYER BEWARE!!!
I said over the last 5 years, you've chosen to highlight a couple of years during that total period. The simple fact remains that during that period only City & Chelsea (of the teams above you) have outspent you. You can pick any timeframe you like since the inception of the PL, the facts are still the same, you've consistently been one of the biggest spenders & so therefore, pro rata, in PL terms, you've under performed compared to the resources invested, it's an indisputable fact mate.
