Now, its a hard one so lets be adults... On the back of the SR/ Chico incident; lets have a chat about this. I urge the mods to please let this run until it becomes a personal attack. I urge the posters who wish to contribute, to post and not be upset, offended by the other posters views. I honestly think, that if put properly; this could be very good debate... Its not aimed at Chico; but I'd love his input Now as a youngster; I was always bought up to believe that suicide was a selfish cowards way out. Why would you run away from your problems by putting them all on you family? As a suicide..e'. There is no pain. The only pain is that which you family; loved ones & friends suffer. I've seen it at first hand. I had to do the Eulogy to my best mate who drowned himself. I was so close to his family that his mum used to call me her son. I spent weeks with her & husband trying to get over it..they stil haven't and prob never will. This only enfo rced my belief that suicide is a cowards way out. I feel so strongly about this subject that I struggle to post this. My mate died ansd is gone; his family however' live the nightmare every day for te next 40 years.!! Personaly; I don't understand how anything could ever be so bad that suicide is the only option. Ive read this board for a year or so now; and; It appears to me that there are many on here who have lost there misus; split up; divoeced etc & I know that aint easy. I'm in that camp. the likes of Col' Uber; DT'' Farflung have all gone through it. I'll admit that it crossed my mind; but; Im not selfish enough toleave those I love in the position of loss So..I ask you..does Chico deserve our smpathy or not? Lets be honest..how hard is it to get wrong? Discuss MODS..thank you for letting this run, as per the gay thread.
Ive seen it 1st hand too, I went to school with a mate who threw himself off a bridge and that devastated his mother. I think its very selfish to end your pain only to heap it onto others but then again is it a mental illness to go that far? Good luck with the thread staying open!
Alas, I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody that hasn't been through a divorce in this day and age, such is the attitude to marriage, fidelity and responsibility to offspring in this day and age. Suicide is a very difficult subject to cover. How does someone that has never been affected by certain experiences or suffered the same conditions ever truly understand why others choose to take their own lives? How can we ever distinguish between the true intent to end one's life and those that are actually crying out for help? I used to hold the belief that suicide was a cowardly act, and I'm sure that in some, but not every, case it is. I can imagine, however, that there are some for whom the whole world seems to be crushing their every move; misery and failure seems to greet them at every corner, physical or mental wellbeing seems to deteriorate by the minute. I can imagine that for these people they eventually reach a point where they can no longer take what life throws at them. I can imagine that they might persuade themselves that their family or friends would be better off without them. I can imagine that they've exhausted every possible alternative and, quite possibly or probably, are no longer acting in a totally rational manner, although again I'm sure that some suicides have been fully rational throughout. As I said above, how can we ever truly understand how it is for these people unless we go though it ourselves? Who'd ever wish that for themselves?
I honestly don't think it is a very nice subject to debate even at a good time. In light of the SR/Chico incident, I don't think it is appropriate to discuss this subject at this time. What do you think we would gain from having this debate Queens? We touched on depression previously (I know depression is different from suicide but there is a direct link) and it is obvious that a lot of people have either suffered from it themselves or have loved ones who have suffered from it. I have a direct close relation who has depression at the moment so it is a subject close to my heart but not a subject I would like to see debated on a football messageboard.
I also do not think we can debate this...because most (but not all) of us on this board, do not know what depression actually is and how bad it can be. It is really not..."I am so really depressed because QPR are relegated". It is an overwhelming, smothering, painful, all encompassing feeling, that cannot be shaken, and many suicidees think that their family will be better off without them. The illness being so bad, they cannot see beyond that feeling. I am lucky, I do not have that tendency....so I will comment no further, because I cannot
What the hell. You say "Its not aimed at Chico;", then "So..I ask you..does Chico deserve our smpathy or not?". It quite clearly is about Chico. The guy's life has been completely ruined, he's had a nightmarish time, and you're asking whether he deserves our sympathy? The phrase "too soon" instantly comes to mind. This only happened a couple of weeks ago, so i'd imagine his life isn't completely back on track yet. Do you think this is a particularly helpful thread for him to stumble across? "Lets be honest..how hard is it to get wrong?". You mean suicide, right? I'm guessing you're an expert in this field, and have thoroughly researched the statistics of the success rates of different methods of suicide? Because if you haven't, that would be an incredibly ignorant and inflammatory comment to make. I think everyone was hugely relieved that Chico did "get it wrong" as you've put it. Are you essentially making a sweeping generalization that people who attempt, and fail to kill themselves, haven't really tried hard enough? A human life is a hard thing to extinguish, we're very hardy. Physiologically we're designed to survive. A body can be completely wrecked in an explosion/ car crash, yet the person can still live. "I was always bought up to believe that suicide was a selfish cowards way out.". You were brought up incorrectly with regards to attitudes on suicide, in that case. I think it would be selfish for anyone to expect another person to continue to live, if that person is experiencing constant severe pain/lack of enjoyment in life. Mental illness is often more painful than severe physical disability. If you think suicide is wrong, then you think people don't have the right to self determination. You must oppose euthanasia too? "Personaly; I don't understand how anything could ever be so bad that suicide is the only option.". Well good for you! Just try to imagine what it would feel like to experience extended periods of unending anguish, from which it feels like there's no escape and no way out. If someone has experienced extreme levels of suffering for a long time, and they fully believe that it is never going to end- then what's so surprising about them considering suicide? " I don't understand" is synonymous for "i am ignorant on this issue". Apologies if i'm being "PC"
At the risk of being shot down as an outsider................. Following a marital breakdown I was clinically diagnosed as depressed so can actual speak with some authority on the subject. To sum it up in easy terms that anyone can understand it is a living hell and is not solely confined to one aspect. Agoraphobia is quite common in "genuinely" depressed people and the smallest of "incidents" can have a rather severe impact on the individual that is suffering the condition. In my case I found it very hard to go shopping for food as I would all too often see "dads & lads", something at the time I felt I was being deprived of through the actions of the now ex-wife. I would often break down in the middle of Tesco's/Waitrose/Sainsbury as this particular sight was simply too much. On top of that I was a very keen angler (fisherman) so used to enjoy walking along side rivers and lakes etc, not to go fishing, just to look around. There were times during that period that I contemplated jumping in to a nearby sluice where the Water was very turbulent and near freezing (it was in a January in the UK). Thankfully I did not and eventually came through it all but I fully understand why someone else may take that extra step. It is nearly impossible to really describe how it feels to someone that has no experienced it themselves (I am talking about clinically diagnosed depressants - not people that are "merely" very unhappy - there is a big difference I can assure you). Is it the cowards way out? Hell no, if the state of mind is that bad then it going to happen and there is no though about being brave or cowardice at the time. The "cowardice" is a perception by outsiders who just do not or cannot understand just how screwed up a person is to believe that is the only solution to their miserable existence.
This is not a matter of political correctness that perceived namby-pambies will rush to close. It's an intensely personal matter that negates the feelings of many that resort to a football message board for sanctuary from that other brittley, void condition so many of us experience at crucial stages of our existance. Queens, I appreciate your need to debate OT issues from time to time, but this one can only be a crass over-simplification at best, since we cannot walk in another person's shoes. We are all here to share and enjoy a distraction, not add fuel to the fire others will be going through as we speak. Sorry to disappoint you mate but as moderator, I can only see it doing more harm than good. Apologies all. Thread closed.
At Chico's request and on condition we bear in mind that some reading our words may be suffering as we speak, I've agreed to re-open Queens' thread. Keep it helpful, caring and informative though please.
OK guys, I'll try to give you a bit of insight. Not of suicide itself but with the thoughts that might lead to it as seen from a close bystander. My fiancee has suffered from depression for 25 years and the subject of suicide probably appears around 3 days a week (not instigated by me obviously). My other half believes she is jinxed/cursed and every event that goes against her, from minor things like it seeming to rain to the bigger issues like family illness, reinforce this belief. She believes that anything that goes wrong for her close ones is her fault and that everyone would be free from a burden if she wasn't around. If you listen to management speak, they say that you need about six positives to counterbalance one negative piece of news/feedback - apply that to life and then it's not too much of a stretch to imagine the randomness of events appearing to always conspire against you. In her worst moments she wishes she had the guts to end it and I've held her while she cries and says she doesn't want to be here anymore. I know she doesn't consider it selfish and, if anything, her loved ones (me and her parents) have prevented her from doing more than a few extra tablets to help her sleep (the self harming is a different psychological issue and not related to suicidal tendencies). I'm just thankful that she does hang on for us because it gives me a chance to try to affect things and positively reinforce her worth and value. Selfish? No. Tragic? Yes. I don't think there's much more to say to be honest.
Excellently put. Not going to go into it deeply but have had some experience of family and close friends going through this kind of thing and some of the comments in the OP are quite frankly insulting, albeit I'd imagine not intentionally. Serious lack of tact on display at best.
Well done Brix and thanks to Chico as well. Depression is something that I've been very closely related to for many years. My mother suffered dreadfully and I remember two periods in 1958 and 1961 when I was despatched to my Gran's in Liverpool when my mother was hospitalized at Cane Hill Hospital in Coulsdon. She underwent ECT and other awful therapies all for the after-effects of losing a baby in childbirth in 1953. The attitude then was 'It's happened, get over it', she never did. I was born the following year but my mother never got over that loss and I and my sister suffered dreadfully as a result and one memory of a Sunday visit to that hospital will never leave me, the smell, the screams and the overwhelming bleakness are etched in my memory over 50 years later. It is not a condition that is 'curable' as it is very much in the fragile psyche of the sufferer, and although there may be improvements in the level of depression it is always lurking in the background. My late father-in-law was a manic depressive which in a way is even worse because of the extreme mood-swings they undergo. He also had periods in South Western Hospital, Clapham where he also underwent ECT, but his condition was mainly treated with seriously powerful drugs like Largactol and Lithium. as long as the balance was kept right the bigger extremes were controlled, but he still made at least three suicide attempts through overdoses. It really is a minefield dealing with such an unpredictable psyche. Those who say they can't understand anyone attempting suicide have been lucky in a way, they've probably never knowingly been in a position to see directly the devastation these conditions can have on people who, on the outside, can seem perfectly normal, yet at home, in their own 'torn' world can be enduring absolute nightmares just living from day to day...
Before you read what you are about to read, I will warn you that some of it is disturbing. If you are the sensitive type, I suggest you do not continue to read. I have requested this to be re-opened, and hopefully what I am about to write will help others should they be feeling how I felt. I'm a 25 year old lad, and I have had a very troubled life. Born in 1987, I spent the first 3 weeks of my life in ICU. I was 6 weeks early, and my mother was a heroin addict who used constantly during the pregnancy. I don't remember anything from my first years, all I know is that my father was imprisoned for possession of a class A drug. He wasn't due for release until I was 12. We lived in a town called Ammanford, South Wales. My mother had numerous boyfriends, most of them users too. At the age of 5, my first sister came along. Things seemed to be okay until then. When she hit the age of 2, it was then my job to bring her up, along with my newest sister. Our mother was always "out of it", and was incapable of feeding us, let alone supply for us. most days our dinner consisted of cold beans on toast, of which the beans were stolen from the local supermarket by myself. Between the ages of 7 and 8, I witnessed, and was on the receiving end of some horrific things. My mothers new boyfriend, a user and supplier, began to abuse my two sisters. He forced me to watch. He never abused me sexually, but regularly forced me to inhale "puff". Once night, he raped my mother in front of all three of us, and threatened to kill us if we moved, or shouted. At the age of 10, my grandmother took us in. 3 weeks later, the same guy murdered our mother. Since then, my life has been a bit easier. I witnessed my grandfather have a heart attack, and sadly, he passed away. I then lost my best friend, a Japanese Akita, when I was 19. Most recently myself and my new wife lost a baby at 22 weeks. I never spoke to anyone about my troubles. My Gran, my wife, my family knew nothing of my, nor my sisters troubles. My father is out of prison now, living in Bournemouth. He is making amends for being away, but I will never hold that against him. He is clean, he is married, and he has a full time job. I'm happy for him. Being stuck in a hard place, not knowing who to turn to is hard. I don't think I have ever cried (Up until 3 weeks ago), and was amazed at how relieved I was after crying on my wifes shoulder 3 weeks ago. The night I tried to kill myself, I wasn't myself. Me and my wife had fallen out, started by the emotions of losing our child. My eyes went black, and I couldn't see anything but pain. Everytime I saw a couple with a baby, I wanted to break down. Everytime someone mentioned drugs, I wanted to break down. But I couldn't. I drove to an isolated wood and I attempted to hang myself. Luckily, my best friend Steve had followed me and took me down after 6 or 7 minutes. I was dead, but the paramedics arrived in quick time and managed to revive me. The rest, I don't remember. Do I feel like a coward? No. It's my life, and you do with your life as you wish. There are loved ones you will hurt, of course. But, feeling the way you do, you feel as if there is no other way. Am I happy I survived? YES. I was in a bad place. Not my fault, but I could have done something about it. There is always another option, and taking your life isn't one of them. I am now seeking help with my depression, and regularly speak with a counsillor. I am far from being myself, but I feel much happier in myself. I now see that my family love me, and I have a lot of friends that care for me. Something I didn't see before. So, if you feel down, please discuss it with a loved one. They are there for you, and will help you. No matter what you have been through, life is always worth living. Look to the future, not to the past. That is something I regret doing. Ash.
This is very close to me as well, and all I'm going to say is it is very hard to come back from the point of no return and I have great admiration for people who have done that. There have been 5 suicides in the last 15 months at the local railway station and the usual nonsense on Tw@ter is about how inconsiderate that person has been and how long is it going to take to clear up the deceased (usually 3-4 hours), no one thinks about the person who has died or the family/friends he/she has left behind.
To second what was said above by Matt: With depression, nothing ever seems to be good in life. I am a pool player, a referee and an ex player for my local side. I damaged my knee and couldn't play any more. When I was hoarded by players as a referee, or if I had a bad game of pool, I felt these happened for a reason. A curse maybe. If an animal ran in front of my car, I thought it was a sign that god wanted me to miss the animal and take my life instead. It all seems to lead to pain and unhappiness. That is usually followed by wanting to end it all. Believe me, talking with someone professional and a bit of fight is the answer. It's not easy, but it's worth the fight. Trust me.
I fail to understand how you can appear to criticise someone for divorcing if they have kids and then ask how anyone can understand an individual's circumstances on another issue? You really shouldn't make judgements on other peoples' lives and decisions mate.
I said I would not comment further but Chicos harrowing but eloquent account has brought me to tears. It took real guts to share that with us. How can any of us understand what he has been through....all our experiences are different....other people will have other experiences that drive them towards suicide. All we can do is offer support in their fight against depression....not to ask for a reason or to criticise Chico you know you have the love and support of many many people on the Swans board, and I hope you can see on this one too
Totally this. Having been through a similar situation myself, i know how f***** up your mind can get and how, in hard times, you can do some things that you later regret. Ash/Chico....You have my total support at all times. And as a footnote to Queens...You seem to have some kind of problem with the treatment given to SR and somehow think it unjust. IMO, for what its worth, the fella was a total c*** and a keyboard warrior who caused more trouble to this board through his WUM'ing than anyone else. Good riddance to him.
