So you are relying on the teaching of an ardent socialist to judge a person you have no experience of - thanks for putting us in the picture Toby. This is all getting very silly when people try to pretend that what Thatcher did in the 1980s is responsible for today's ills. For goodness sake if she got it so wrong could nobody put it right in the 25 years nearly since she went. The country had Tory and Labour Governments - so try to argue on facts not your guesses as to what happened 20 years later and was her fault. I could go back to the 1960s and blame all our ills on the madmen Wilson and Brown for the lasting harm they did to the UK
To give some facts. In the 1980s the UK economy grew the 6th fastest in the world - Australia - 12th Incremental GDP UK $475m Aus $162m In the 1990s the UK economy grew the 4th fastest in the world - Australia - 16th Incremental GDP UK $4762m Aus $73m I think that proves that Thatcher left a legacy of econnomic success and growth which would have created jobs that socialsts just deny. They focus only on the dead jobs that went. The UK legacy is after 2000 has to be due at least in part oto Labour or why were they in power. I blamne Gordon Brown if you want to blame anyone - and the country knew it too in 2010 - or why else would htey have voted for Cameron and Clegg - not exactly two great minds those two are they?
The unions you agree were archaic, obstructive and heavily influenced by Marxist-Leninism are precisely the ones that "governed the country" - not the nice little docile ones. They held the country to ransom - look at any speech by Scargill. How did making the unions democratic - giving their members the right of secret ballots ride roughshod over civil liberties - on the contrary - they rescued the civil liberties usurped by union power barons. Thatcher encouraged private enterprise and the knowledge that as in the US and Germany and other successful western economies there were great rewards to be earned by success but that was needed to grow the economy. The tax system is there to then claw back from that created wealth money to do social engineering and pay for the welfare state we believe in. Some people just don't like to see others earn "loadsa money" The current banking crisis lays at the hands of the last Labour government - firstly for abandoning the regulations in place in 1997 and then for spending too much on pet social projects and squandering the wealth previously created and burdening the country with unsustainable debt that meant we could not weather the global downturn in 200 as well as some of our competitors - Germany for instance where they understand the evils of debt. In my book one of Thatchers missed opportunities was her failure to tackle the welfare state. It started out in 1945 as a world leading system but by the 80's was beginning to creak badly. Because it is so easy for peole to criticise every change in the welfare system governemnts have been reluctant to tackle it and it is now a complete mess. Thatcher had no real par tin that - certainly not more than every other PM since the 1950s
Mrs L will think I have gone completely insane if she reads any of this. I have always disliked MT - mostly because I hated the way she talked, her arrogance, her "I am right whatever you think" attitude and many many more - yet on here I am DEFENDING her
It is simple...if you can afford to defend her then you never suffered under and you cannot understand why this one woman is causing so much hatred towards her. This is not a few people coming on her with exactly the same thoughts it is millions across the country that even after all this time still hate what she did. Now if you simply ignore the tide of ill feeling then you are no better than her, she totally ignored what her policies would do to ordinary families she was rich. jck
Probably because I worked hard and got on and I don't blame others when I don't - I pick myself up and start again. Nothing to do with being able to afford or not afford anything, it's about ambition, drive and realising that it's you and your family that can make you succeed. It's not the state and it's not the unions..they will just piss on you like everyone else.
You're lucky you had a job at all back then, after what the Tory Puppet Dr Beeching did to BR...... A long time before the lady, yes - but had Tory attitudes and ideologies changed much in the intervening time? No. She learnt all she knew from them - and made Scotland in particular suffer a second time.
I was a member of a trade union all my working life. I joined as a young man because I was conscious of my family history and how hard people had fought to gain and defend some basic employee rights. I had no objection to union decisions being made more democratic..there was clearly a need. I did and still do find the demonising of trade unionism hard to swallow. There is plenty of evidence now of people pressurised to work in poor conditions on basic wages and I think some of their previous defences have been swept away. I sense this is not a popular view on here, but I do see plenty of evidence of people locally who want to better themselves but who genuinely are meeting real barriers. I don't think you have to be categorised as a Marxist to feel some groups, especially the young, are easily exploited by those drawing the greatest profits.
No, not after being made privy to the full extent of the financial damage caused by 13 years of Tory incompetence.
No it's not that jack - I do not simply judge others by what happened to me personally. There are times when for the good of others things may go against you. I am defending her because many of the charges being leveled against her are ill considered and speculative. I tried to suggest 3 good and 3 bad things she actually DID - not what people think was a result of her action 25 years later. I do understand why people hated / hate her. However as w-y said there are people who say - that was **** , that was not fair - but dust themselves down and try to make a go of it thereafter - others dont and use it as the reason for the failure as they see it of the rest of their lives. Now I know that oversimplifies it and I have no idea what I would have done if I lived in a place that got to 90% unemployment. What I do feel though is that in life you are harmed by hatred - it does actually harm you so in your own interests you need to let go and move on - you may never like the person but to allow yourself to dance in the street and stamp on a photograph of a dead person as some did on the news today is sick. (when I say "you" above I dont mean you jack but "you" as in people generally. I do not doubt the sincerity of those who hate her but do not condone their actions
I love it that on a subject so emotive the hornet sense of humour does not disappear - it is almost unique - other clubs really struggle to disagree peaceably Probably born of supporting Watford
Great stuff this. I have to say I am a surprised at the anti-Maggie feeling being expressed on here and generally across the country - I don't come from a family of tories, in fact my old dad was very socialist in his outlook and absolutely refused to entertain the idea of buying his council house, but I am surprised at the strength of feeling!
Be clear it was her actions that people despise, no one here would harm a little old lady but what she did was evil and that is putting it nicely. I am sorry that with the feelings of not just me personally but millions upon millions who you may not think count for anything things are going to get far worse than expressing a view on the internet. I would also advise against expressing pro thatcher views out in public. Anyone supporting her now would have supported her back then and the only reason for that would be they are and were far better off than the vast majority. I do not agree with people celebrating in the streets and dancing at her funeral but she brought all this on herself... ...with complete disregard for destroying peoples lives. jck
jck - Your comment "Anyone supporting her now would have supported her back then and the only reason for that would be they are and were far better off than the vast majority" is just not the case. I suspect that most ordinary people who thought at the time and still think now that Mrs T did the right things for the right reasons, were not much better off than the vast majority and are still probably not far better off. Personally, at that time I was just getting married. Mrs W_Y and I had saved for years in the Building Society for a deposit to buy a house but had to move out of our local area to be able to afford a small house instead of a flat. I was a service engineer earning a good but not a huge salary at the time and within 2 years we had our first child and Mrs W_Y gave up full time work - so we were by no means "far better off". I suspect that Mrs T's funeral will be an excuse by those so minded to bring more violence to the streets of this country in the name of democracy and no doubt more quotes from the likes of Bragg and Morrissey.
I do not know Billy Bragg, but I do know who Morrisey is. How can they say such things now? Is it that now they have money they can afford to be socialists? Everyone is equal but I will keep my good house and large ammount of money. I see Mrs Thatcher is to have a military funeral, was she ever in the military forces? It was good to see the people of Bristol and south London having parties in Mrs Thatchers honour, they must have loved her very much.
