Interesting that many judgements of MT rely quite heavily on emotional responses...how strong she was etc etc. Like Churchill, it can obscure their failures.
1- The state this country is in now is mostly her fault. 2- We are nothing like a 3rd world nation. This country is still one of the best places to live in the world (apart from the weather and the current government)
i certainly won't be mourning her passing. Condolences to her family, of course, but we have a lot to blame her for. Apart from the Falklands which, in hindsight, seems like a bit of good that she did, she ruined our country, making us a nation of greedy, selfish, lazy people, a nation who has no ability to learn a new trade, being as all the 'trades' have gone, and we're left with jobs in fast food chains and service industries. She promised more money for the poor, made them buy their houses, and left them poorer. However, the rich became richer...so that was good, wasn't it! She was a very clever, very strong woman, who channeled all her efforts on London and the south east, leaving the rest of the country to rot. Oh yes, she brought change, and change was needed...but the changes were misguided, and we haven't recovered. From what i remember, she even managed to make changes to sport for the worst, but i can't for the life of me remember how...it'll come back, i'm sure! When i met her, i found her hugely patronising, as i had expected, and with a smile that was as fake as Jordan's breasts! Still, as everyone has said, she divided the nation, so for those of you who mourn, my condolences to you also. We haven't had a leader like her since, i doubt we will again.
Could anyone on here see any of the prime ministers we have had since Margaret Thatcher rescuing the nation from the trade union bosses who were ruining this country on orders from Moscow, I don't. And what will we have next, more of the pinky-hued conservatism of David Cameron or the champagne-socialism of little Eddie Milliband - neither have half the balls (no pun intended, because Little Eddie has Mr Yvette Cooper) of Mrs Thatcher. It was a sad day when her own stabbed her in the back, but that's what the Tories are best at. Marcus Junius Brutus and Gaius Cassius Longinus would be too lily-livered for the Tory back-bench assassins.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22078110 So, no minute's silence for MT required of football clubs - just as well I suspect.
Any fool can send a task force anywhere as long as they are not in the boat. Anyone who lived through her 16 years has every right to have their say now anyone who did well out of her policies can go to hell with her. It would be rather two faced to hate her during her life and pretend to feel sorry in her death don`t you think. This look at me scenario that I am so good I will not say anything bad about her and she did some good thing is coming from people totally unaffected by her, the people who were are of one voice "united in their hatred of this woman" and to have so many millions sharing this view would lead any normal person to ask why if they did not already know. We know this woman so well, she was evil. jck
Set me thinking there theo. 3 good things MT did 1 Removed the power of union leaders. Making secret ballots and thus a more democratic process was excellent. Those of us old enough to have really experienced the 1970's -so really those now over 50 - we know that Britain was governed more or less by un-elected trade union bosses. Those bosses had a purely political agenda and often did not care about the workers they pretended to represent but pursued their own agenda. 2 She closed dead or dying industries - especially coal mining - and removed from the hands of the government control and running of many others. Governments are their to govern not to inefficiently run industry using social policy to operate them and thus making them fail in the world economy and so ultimately destroy jobs 3 She gave people who were in council houses the right to buy - no Hornette she did not force anyone to buy - and those who did buy were and are very grateful. 3 bad things she did 1 Where she had forced closure of industries (that were the modern equivalent of blacksmiths when horses were no longer the mode of transport) she totally failed to create new industry and new jobs to replace them. Thus she left whole communities dead and dying and without any real hope - this was compounded by the asinine statement of Tebbitt to get on your bike and look for work 2 She did not force - or indeed allow - councils to re-invest the money from sale of council houses in new housing stock and thereby prevent the housing price inflation that followed and the lack of housing stock that we have had ever since 3 She tried to introduce the poll tax - one of the stupidest taxes of the 20th century. I have left out the Falklands as I could have put it in either camp. OK - they are my "off the top of my head" specifics rather than generalisations. Would be interested to here others views of those and am sure that many will see as a negative what I see as a positive and maybe vice versa
1 You give too much credit to any politician to say that nearly 25 years after they left office the state of the nation is down to them - perhaps it is down to subsequent governments and what they did or did not do 2 Too right
i forgot Section 28. And calling Mandela a terrorist. And yes, poll tax. She gave those without hope, no hope. Evil? It's a strong word jck, but i think you have a point.
Any fool can send a task force but not many would have. Most would have quietly said "oh dear what can we do naughty Argies" - and I think you under-estimate just what it did take but I will leave our military friends on here to tell us that She was PM for 11 and a half years - where do you get 16? So those people who bought their council houses and those who did move from dead and dying industries to others are evil are they? Those who thrived because union bosses could no longer intimidate them into carrying out actions not in their interests but in the interests of the world socialist repuiblic are evil are they? It would be two faced but there is a difference between hating her and not mourning her and rejoicing at her death. You have your opinions - allow others to have theirs or stay on your own board - those who liked liked her - they are not saying look at me etc. Silly that. She was elected as PM 3 times - she had a lot of support. She was not evil - she had convictions of how to create a better Britain - you can disagree but to suggest actions contrary to ones you support are evil is childish. Nobody has pointed it out but outside of the UK she is admired if not revered for the actions she took for Britain - even in many EU countries with whom she fought.
Section 28 was incredibly popular - it was a knee jerk reaction to Aids and in times when people were ignorant on homophobia. On Mandela she was a typical Tory - they have always tened to turn a blind eye to apartheid and racism. No-one has mentioned Ireland - good or bad there? Evil means trying to do bad - do you honestly think she tried to do bad things - or do you just not like what she did?
Interesting that you should list those two in that order. From the viewpoint of many in Scotland, it was the other way around. She allowed many a worker to buy their council houses with quite small mortgages - then closed down their industries, thereby removing their only means of servicing those mortgages. I wonder who, exactly, gained from those foreclosures. And another for the 'either camp' category - the Britain she created in the 80's proved to be a very fertile potting mix for the seeds of Blair's New Labour....
I thought she killed jobs early on and allowed council sales later - but could easily have got that the wrong way round She certainly united Scotland - was that good or bad
Section 28 was popular with the minority of small minded, or ignorant people. Most people didn't even know about Section 28 until it was overturned. Those who were affected by Section 28 were ostracised by the rest. 'Typical Tory' doesn't exuse her. Ireland is a huge subject and not one i feel qualified to comment on. Evil doesn't have to have intent. e·vil (vl) adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est 1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant. 2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet. 3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens. 4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation. 5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper. n. 1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness. 2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil. 3. An evil force, power, or personification. 4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.
Taking a different view of things, based on what I've seen on documentaries, the amount of people 'in the know' that the writers of Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister had available to them numbers quite a few. If the phrase that is used in the first programme about the Civil Service running the Government and the politicians in power are (to a point) puppets, is any mess that Britain may be in the fault of the Civil Service members within Whitehall?
Unfortunately H I think you are completely wrong on section 28 - it was enormously popular - and got support not just from Tories but across the whole political spectrum - society back then was still largely homophobic and Aids added to fears. For the record I hated and opposed it. Typical Tory does NOT excuse her but puts it in perspective I need no dictionary definition of Evil - we all know what we mean by evil. You are entitled to believe that a person who had strong convictions about how to make life in Britain better was evil if you choose. However once you start to suggest that then you risk putting a lot of people in the camp of evil: Blair, Brown probably Cameron - none of them are of course. I think Arthur Scargill was absolutely awful and cared only for himself and his cronies but I draw the line at calling him evil. Hitler was evil. Yes Ireland is too big
Look at the things affecting the poorest amongst us in this country: - The cost of accommodation - Energy bills - Transport costs - Job security She is the main reason why these things are out of control. Mass privatisation was the worst thing to happen to this country. Maybe at the time, it wasn't cost effective, but the long term damage it's caused is huge. The generations on the dole in parts of the UK where they will never be able to leave is her legacy, along with people worrying about heating their homes or even having a home. She was a heartless woman, not a trait wanted for a leader.
Falklands: she sent the Task Force on what was virtually 'mission impossible' out of ignorance and hubris. It could have, and so very nearly did, go horribly wrong. She was rescued by the sheer bravery, skill and endurance of all three of the Services, and rode on their achievement for another two terms. (Not the first time our lads have got their 'leaders' out of the s**t by a long chalk- Corunna, Crimea, Boer War, 1stWW, Dunkirk, Battle of Britain, Battle of the Atlantic etc etc). Unions: yes, unionism and union practices in the big traditional industries were archaic, obstructive and heavily influenced by Marxist-Leninism. They were in serious need of an overhaul. No, we were not 'governed by union bosses'. Many other unions were perfectly sensibly run. Dealing with the former the way she did involved riding rough-shod over all, totally ignoring civil liberties. The 'winner takes all' yuppie culture flourished under her economic policies and we are still reaping the whirlwind now in terms of all the current banking crises. Likewise the erosion of Britain's greatest post-War achievement, the Welfare State, began under her leadership. We felt this powerfully in education, and the National Health Service came under similar attack. Privatisation and the cult of celebrating the successful individual was enforced to the cost of undermining community and mutual supportiveness. I for one am already sick of hearing about her. And the worst of it? Her peerage wasn't a life peerage so that odious son of hers gets the title.
Accommodation - partly to blame through not allowing councils to build new houses - but 13 years of Labour as well as 7 Tory under Major could have changed that Energy - not worldwide oil prices then but some 30 year old evil done by MT Transport - not worldwide oil prices then? Job security - does not compute. Nothing to do with whatever happened 25 years ago Sorry you are too young to have lived through the idiotic inefficiencies of Nationalised Industry. States cannot and should not run industry. Mass privatisation was essential and extremely good for the economy and therefore ultimately most people in the country who benefited from the UK's growth in the 1990s and beyond compared to the stagnation of the 60s and 70s. I know that those who have not got jobs will not agree but there would have been less jobs in a stagnant economy
