Did he deserve to be given as much time as other players to improve? Players like Henderson & Lucas put their heads down and worked hard to prove people wrong. Carroll hasn't. He isn't a good trainer and he never looked that bothered about playing at Liverpool. He had a full season under Kenny Dalglish, after his injury, and he only looked up/bothered for a couple of games in the whole season. He did not deserve the same amount of patience as Lucas, Henderson etc because he never really showed that he wanted to be here and prove himself. Its a shame because he has some really unique qualities and he's unplayable on his day but he just doesn't seem to have the work ethic or desire to apply himself 100% in the whole season.
If he was such a bad trainer I doubt Kenny would have ever played him but I accept he probably wasn't the best either. I disagree he only showed he was bothered in a couple of games it was pretty damn obvious what his instructions were last season and it wasn't to provide the team with energy. It was to be physical, make a nuisance of himself and be useful in the air. By the end of the season (and during the Euros) that's exactly what he was doing no? Could we have used a bit of that physicallity this season? Damn right we could. I'd argue the toss with anyone claiming he's the finished article or he was worth the cash we paid but give me a simple choice of Carroll or Borini playing this season (and a saving of £11 million quid last summer) I'd take Mandy any day of the week. Not only did we **** up paying so much for Carroll we compounded the **** up by getting rid for the season and spending another £11 mill on a replacement who's EVEN WORSE.
Downing - given a season and a half to improve Allen - given the nod over fully fit players and still played ****e Towards the end of last season Carroll's form was picking up after a long period of injury. I can't really comment on his attitude to training as I don't participate and I also can't comment on his commitment. What I can comment on is he seems perfectly happy playing for a team circling the relegation drain as his performance the last few weeks has been good. Why would he decide to perform well for West Ham, but not Liverpool?
Think some of it comes from I think Reina and recently I think it was Ashley Cole ( don't quote me on it) when asked who was the worst trainer........ Carroll was the answer to those. I will agree to this though, Should have just kept him and used the 11 mil for Sturridge early on and have had Suarez, Carroll, Sturridge all very different and all battling for places. Didn't happen but hey ho. Good to see some debate again btw!!!!!
The mistake was, SELLING TORRES, he dropped us in the **** saying h wanted to go 7 days b4 the window closed, he shudda been FORCED to stay until the summer,that wudda give us chance to get a GOOD deal for a striker.As ur right if we had sold torres and not bought the fans wudda gone mental. The AC transfer was a major f**k up by KD/DC but the situation in August with AC and BR was also handled terribly, it shudda been sale or stay no loan allowed Thirdly as people have said,AC has got a bad injury record, but he is a decent player, our record with him in the team was exceptional , CL form, without him we were bottom 6 form.The last 2 months of the season he was awesome.As people have said he is a far better player , option than Borini BR needs to give the impression this summer that we are happy to keep him, that will increase his value, if BR gives the impression we are looking to get rid, his value will be lower
TBH if Dalglish had played Maxi and Kuyt on a weekley basis last season Carroll's struggles wont hae been such a big issue. We would have scored more goals over the season to. Less pressure would have been on Carroll's shoulders. Not using Kuyt and Maxi in his first 11 was Dalglish's biggest mistake. At the end of last season Carroll began to become really useful.
+1 to Carroll better than Borini... although not knowing Borinis wage I suspect Carroll is also costing us a lot more weekly. Has anyone considered though... maybe Borini has a sore shoulder?
I actually agree. When I've watched Borini this year his main strength has been his movement off the ball. Obviously doesn't always get picked up on as you tend to watch the player with it but it does help create space for others to operate and take advantage of. He's had a season majorly disrupted by 2 big injuries which has meant he hasn't been able to get a good run of games going. If he can start adding a few goals as well as continueing to create space for others then think he'd be a useful player next year. He's only 22, needs to be given at least a full season before we start to judge him. I thought we'd all worked out you can't judge young foreign players after a handful of games like we did with Lucas
Yet we should judge English players after a season? There is an issue here for me and a serious one that the Lucas experience seems to warp. Unfortunately Lucas was the exception not the rule. Most players who come in and we watch them and think "jesus he's a bit ****" actually are just a bit ****. How many turn out to be like Lucas? Well, you could count those on one hand. You could give a player like N'Gog or Borini or Riera or Cheyrou all the time in the world to settle but they'll still be ****ing useless footballers. Let's be honest if the best thing you can say about a player is that "his movement off the ball has looked ok" then we're pretty much ****ed from the off. We should be able to get a player who's "movement off the ball is ok" for £500 from the 3rd division not £11 million bloody pounds. When I play on a Sunday my movement off the ball is better than ok but somehow I doubt I'll be lucky enough to get paid £40 grand a week for it.
Obviously not, but it's harder for someone coming from a different legue to adjust than it is someone that comes grows up playing in England all their life. You can probably name the amount of players that come over from foreign leagues and hit the ground running and continue on one hand as well. Most players take time to settle and fact is Borini has had half a season disrupted by injuries so I don't think you can turn around and judge him. Henderson took time to settle and now everyone is calling for him to be starting - he's the same age as Borini. The thing regarding his movement is just one think I've picked up when I've watched him. He's got a decent free kick on him as well and has decent pace and stamina. Obviously can score goals as he's done with Roma in Italy. He's probably not going to be prolific but I've no doubt he's able to chip in with 10-15 goals next year from playing in that out wide position if he plays a whole season. Evra, Vidic, Silva, Kompany, Fellaini, Drogba, Enrique at Newcastle, Lukaku - none of those players set the world alight in their first year but are now instrumental to their teams. I think Carroll can be useful as a focul point in that 3 man forward line against teams that are going to sit back and we aren't going to be able to walk the ball through them. Thing is, can you afford to keep him where he is only going to be effective in a handful of games a season? Unless we get a £15mil bid for him I would hope he doesn't go.
Love how everyone's saying Lucas was given a chance. I remember 606 being covered with "Lucas out" threads! Mandy would've been useful this year at times but you can bet bringing down wages was one of BR's targets from FSG and loaning him out made sense. How many games has he played and then what is his goals/game ratio compared to wages spent? Allen has looked out of his depth after a promising start but his class will shine. Borini has spent years in England in with Chelsea and Swansea so the culture cannot be used as an excuse. In fairness to him he's been injured a lot! Get Andy off the wage bill. £10 million will do. Cut the losses and wish him luck. He will only be great when he realises he needs to work hard.
Think that's it with a nail on it. Carroll may well have won us those 6 games a season. But that isn't worth the wages & he wouldn't have anyway because in the 7 games in between each one he'd have got fat, lazy & sullen when he realised he was a bring on. But BR shouldn't have made it so obvious he was unwanted. But then we all talk like other teams managers & scouts can't read signs, don't have moles & wouldn't know exactly how unwanted he was?....
Whilst I agree with most of that Mikey the reduction in wages argument just doesn't stack up for me. Now I don't know the exact wages of Carroll or Borini but say for example Borini is on £40 grand a week and Carroll a hundred grand a week (if I'm way out I'm sure someone will correct me). The difference is roughly £3 mill a year give or take. Take into account the £11 mill we spent on Borini then we could have just kept Mandy for a season or two at least and still been up on the deal. Now there's nothing to say Borini won't come good next year (other than the fact he's been of no use whatsoever this year) but on this seasons evidence alone, I'd argue Mandy may well not be particularly great but he's still a better bet than Borini is. He still gives us something none of our other forwards do. Again I can't argue that he needs to work harder if he wants to fulfil his potential but what seriously concerns me then is why the **** haven't we got people at the club who can motivate players to work harder? To me that could suggest that Rodgers just wanted an easier option even if it's a less effective one. Harsh maybe but then not only have we spent half the season short on options up front we also managed to wipe about ten million quid off Carrolls valuation overnight and spent even more on a replacement who's contributed even less (for whatever reason). If that's the clubs idea of saving money then we are in some serious **** going forward.
West Ham apparently hopeful of keeping Carroll next seaosn - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21985131 No actual quote though, only that "There is a possibility" and "See what negotiations can be done". No doubt they'd tried to get him on a cheap, I hope that rumour of £17mil if they stay up is correct as I think we'd be silly not to accept that for him. Anything under that and can't see the use in selling him.
No if its less than that **** em, we'll keep him. Can't go from scoring in semi-finals, finals then at the euros for your country to someone worth 10m at 22 years of age, I'm not having that. Truth is no one really knows BR reasoning behind this, perhaps (and I know it's a bit out there) but perhaps BR thought he would teach a lazy trainer a lesson by shipping him out on loan or he was trying to instill this tikka takka football and drill it into the first 11 without Carroll being around for that easy long option and once that's taught he'll get a chance?? I don't know - just find it hard to believe that we would alienate and knock off millions of one of our assets like that, but maybe that's exactly what BR did. We shall see.
I can actually see this as a good reason, a young new manager trying to instill a new way of thinking into a club and taking away any temptation to over-ride it untill at least the basics are there. Then you can introduce an alternative.
I don't see why we don't keep him in the summer, and have him as a squad player. Yes we paid £35m for him, but we can't change that. We'd get £15m AT BEST for him in the summer, and let's be honest, in some games you can't pass the ball through the defence for whatever reason, so having him as an option for the cross into the box could be a good plan B.
Reckon he will go on loan again or just be sold for about 10 million. WTF was Dalglish thinking when he offered up 35 million. Very bad buy and I felt pretty sorry for AC as he knew he had to live up to the expectations. Can't see him getting in the team cause of Sturridge too so yeah a loan would help him or just sell him and forget about it.
