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Article: Bigger questions for Red Bull and Webber (Blog-style) | Formula one

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by TomTom94, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. TomTom94

    TomTom94 Well-Known Member

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    As the dust settles in the aftermath of an exhilarating Malaysian Grand Prix - a race that will, no doubt, be one of the best we see this year - Christian Horner should be a very happy man. His drivers occupy 1st and 3rd in the drivers' championship standings, and his opposition, by contrast, had a very poor race. The two non-Red Bull drivers who finished on the podium last week in Australia performed below expectations; Raikkonen picked up a decent haul of points but qualified 10th and with his two off-track excursions looked a shadow of the imperious figure who had dominated in Australia; Fernando Alonso, meanwhile, lasted only one lap after sustaining damage fighting Vettel in the first corner. This early advantage over these two former world champions, two drivers who he will expect to be dueling with throughout the season, will give his own candidates a strong platform on which to build as the F1 circus heads into a 3-week break before April's Chinese Grand Prix.

    But oh, what a different story has instead unfolded.

    Everyone knows the story. Webber was stunned when, having completed his pitstop, he emerged to find his team-mate alongside him, not behind him as he expected, and ready to attack him. Webber valiantly fought to keep Vettel behind him but eventually the young German - to vehement protests from his team-mate - found a way through. Upon the finish, the drivers met to weigh in ahead of the podium. Webber had only two words and a shrug of the shoulders for his team-mate: "Multi 21?" - referring to an internal code that means 'hold station' at Red Bull. Since then enough has been said on both sides to fill another article; most of them can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21910880 ; I, on the other hand, shall move on from discussing whether Vettel's move brought himself into disrepute within the community (spoiler: it did) and instead look at the bigger picture.

    Webber has always been outspoken within Red Bull. The aftermath of his collision with Vettel in the Turkish Grand Prix 3 years ago was notable for the way in which Red Bull's hierarchy initially tried to take the blame off Vettel; this was followed "winggate" and Webber's immortal comment: 'Not bad for a number 2 driver, eh?" at the British Grand Prix. This new incident contained the usual Webber attacks: he gestured at his team-mate as he drove past. Yet the body language of Webber as he walked up to his team-mate after the race was not one of anger, nor one of someone who had a point to prove - in fact, Webber simply looked resigned. While it is true that he had had a long time to come to terms with Vettel's actions, around 10-12 laps, the fact remains that his Aussie passion was curiously still.

    The question must be asked - who, at Red Bull, knew that Vettel was on a charge to attack Webber - and did not stop it? Clearly Webber's race engineer cannot have been aware or he would have warned Mark to step it up before his pitstop. Christian Horner and Helmut Marko have often been accused of favouritism towards Vettel, but shortly before Vettel found his way past Horner was on the radio: "This is silly, Sebastian". The tone was not that of a team principal; more that of a school principal, rebuking a naughty child. Team radio has shown that Vettel was ordered to back off repeatedly and maintain the gap to Webber. Yet why was it not stopped beforehand? The team's strategists must have been aware, given Vettel's pace, that he would emerge close to his team-mate. Webber wore the face of a beaten man. The conspiracy theories, one senses, are starting to ring true in his mind around about now.

    Perhaps Webber's resignation also stems from the knowledge that his time is up. He is 36 now, which makes him a real veteran in Formula 1 terms, and he has missed his two real chances to win the drivers' championship. Desperately unlucky in 2010 having lead the championship for a long period, in 2011 Vettel really was the class of the field as Webber struggled to adapt to the blown diffuser that made Vettel so dominant; but in 2012 his exit from the championship was entirely of his own creation. After re-inserting himself into the battle with wins in Monaco and Britain, Webber could only manage two more podium finishes in the rest of the season. The problem is that while Webber is a fixture at Red Bull, having been there since 2007, he is also a relic of the team's old days, when the signing of David Coulthard was considered a coup and back when Adrian Newey had first joined the team. Mark remembers the disastrous 2008 season where, thanks to his future team-mate, the works team of Red Bull finished behind sister team Toro Rosso in the Constructors' Championship. And the fact remains that when he was signed, he was signed to be a part of a team competing in the midfield. For the last three seasons Mark has been competing at the front and has not got any better at dealing with the pressure that comes with leading the championship in that time.

    Webber's position at Red Bull since the emergence of Vettel has always seemed tenuous. All the drivers that have driven at Toro Rosso have been linked with replacing him, and Antonio da Costa's emergence in Formula Renault 3.5 has lead to him being a contender also. With the regulations changing dramatically next season (and Ricciardo and Vergne's time at Toro Rosso coming to an end) Webber will probably leave Red Bull at the end of this season. Last season he was linked with replacing Felipe Massa at Ferrari and I expect these rumours will do the rounds once more this season. But Ferrari seems an ambitious destination for Mark. They have drivers from their own academy: Perez was incredibly impressive for Sauber last year, and Jules Bianchi has been a revelation at Marussia so far this season. The next generation is coming through, and it seems Mark will be one of the casualties of that generation's future success.

    In fact if or when he does leave Red Bull it is difficult to see where there will be a seat for him. Lotus, Mercedes and Mclaren all have their own settled line-ups. The midfield mainstays, meanwhile, are full of young drivers much in the vein of Mark when he first got his big break at Jaguar. Two years ago Nick Heidfeld was replaced at Sauber by ex-GP2 driver Sergio Perez - just like when Webber had come into Jaguar in 2003 and replaced the aging Eddie Irvine. A year later, his stint filling in for the injured Robert Kubica was cut short by another ex-GP2 driver - Bruno Senna. It is difficult to not see the same fate befalling Webber this year. Perhaps one of the midfield teams will give him one last hurrah as a development driver. Perhaps Caterham will find the funds to give him another season. But it looks increasingly unlikely.

    That said, if Webber is replaced then Red Bull will lose a dependable no.2 driver. Rumours abound that they may lose Vettel to Ferrari but the general suspicion in my opinion is that a certain Lewis Hamilton-obsessed bald BBC journalist might have jumped the gun on those. It would make sense for Red Bull to replace any driver casualties from their own stable (if they do not it rather defeats the purpose of having a young driver's programme in the first place) - if they do then even their most experienced drivers, Buemi and Alguersuari have not been on the grid for two seasons now. This would make them rusty, at best, in racecraft terms - not ideal for a no.2. Red Bull, however, remains the hot destination on the grid. Revelations at the Malaysian Grand Prix included that Hamilton had sought Bernie Ecclestone's help in moving there last season, unsuccessfully. If Vettel does move to Ferrari, perhaps Fernando Alonso might move in the other direction; Kimi Raikkonen's contract is also up at the end of this season. Red Bull's options are very open.

    The lesson we can learn, then, is that it is possible that Webber has finally realised that he cannot expect any favours from within his team. The season is long - we have 17 races to go - but already Vettel has gained a foothold in the championship. If he wants to prove that he can still hack it in the new generation - remembering that that is probably his best chance of staying on the grid full stop next season, two things must happen. The first is that he must rediscover his blistering one lap pace that used to mark him out as a great qualifier. Vettel's dominance of qualifying was a key factor in his 2011 championship and Webber must not let him do so again. The second is that he must do his talking on the track. Being outspoken has certainly done him no favours so far. Yet it is possible that this is indeed the first step to that transformation. If Mark can come back from this, and he is certainly experienced enough to try, then he might just manage it - but if he cannot, then he will have to accept the inevitable truth that the limits of his age and talent have indeed finally been reached.
     
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  2. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

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    article-style <ok>
     
    #2
  3. u408379965

    u408379965 Well-Known Member

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    Great article. <ok>

    I think as usual, the option will be Webber's to take up at the end of the season. da Costa won't be thrown straight into the senior team, and there'll be no burning desire to get Vergne or Ricciardo in there.

    Personally I think Vettel should leave. They still manage him like a child; constantly telling him today to be patient even though they had no long term goal. I thought this last year too when they kept lying to him about the state of his tyres to get him to slow down late in races, it showed a lack of respect and confidence that they couldn't be honest with him, something which Vettel paid back in kind today when he ignored their team orders. It reminds of Hamilton at McLaren, they never stopped treating him like the kid they brought into the sport.

    I don't think Vettel needs Red Bull any more either, they're still the best team in my opinion, but their advantage is only slight now, they're not the dominant force they were. Leaving them wouldn't be a big step back.
     
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  4. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I? Forum Moderator

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    Great article.

    I can imagine Mark is now considering his very short term future at the team. The question on team orders right or wrong Im really unsure on what is right or wrong. besides team orders do not make sense in round 2! the team should have said "Mark move over", "Lewis move over" but instead the teams said 'hold position' That is what is wrong I think.

    Need to think about it more.... (ive only just seen pt2 of the race)
     
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  5. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    I don't remember anyone making a fuss when Webber tried to overtake Vettel in the last few laps against team orders a couple of seasons ago, and Webbers comments afterwards were "if there was a problem with Fernandos's car we were racing for 1st place" so he obviously thinks when racing for 1st it's acceptable to ignore team-orders and go for the win, but only if it's in his favour.
     
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  6. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

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    Couldn't agree more AG. What odds could you get on a Hamilton-Vettel line-up at Mercedes next year? The new engines could well make Mercedes the team to beat, and there's certainly been indications from that outfit that they've been concentrating on 2014 more than perhaps others have. Granted it would be harsh on Rosberg, but they couldn't ditch Hamilton and Rosberg would easily get another top drive.
     
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  7. u408379965

    u408379965 Well-Known Member

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    I think when Mark has time to digest what happened today he'll be pleased with the team and reassured of his position within it. They refused Vettel's call for team orders and then tried to let Mark have the win. There'll be no comfortable 1-2's at Red Bull this season, a precedent has been set now, whatever the order they'll fight to the end, I think Mark would've taken that scenario at the start of the season.

    Could be possible. Haug was very keen on Vettel a few years ago, but their hopes of getting him were scuppered by the fact they couldn't compete with Red Bull. But they look like they're getting their act together now. I don't think Hamilton would object, he thinks he can beat Vettel and wants to prove it, and Vettel has spoken of Merc's mythical status before, as a German they're quite an alluring marque, and I'm sure following in the footsteps of Schumacher and Fangio appeals to him.

    I'd quite like to see him at Lotus. Him and Raikkonen get on well, and with that driver line up they'd have no problems attracting sponsors.
     
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  8. mustyfrog

    mustyfrog Well-Known Member

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    webber should take vettel out next race
     
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  9. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I? Forum Moderator

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    please log in to view this image

    I dont know why but this picture explains more than words about the RB driver pairing...
     
    #9
  10. Forza Bianchi

    Forza Bianchi Well-Known Member

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    Suspension wouldn't be a bad idea, although I wouldn't do that in Horner's position. I would replace him with Raikkonen in 2014 instead.
     
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  11. JonnyBaws

    JonnyBaws Well-Known Member

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    Bit harsh? Also, Red Bull would be cutting off their noise to spite their face if they even considered such an idea.

    Also, what I don't want to see is Vettel pulling over in the next race a gifting Webber a win would they be running 1-2, to wings don't make a right!
     
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  12. TomTom94

    TomTom94 Well-Known Member

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    If Red Bull suspend Vettel then they risk losing him so I'm sure they won't do anything.
     
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  13. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    No way Helmut-tley would go for that
     
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  14. St. Slicks of Stoneham

    St. Slicks of Stoneham Active Member

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    I think it's a serious matter which has been in the making for a long time, and now needs to be resolved. Horner must take action otherwise he is going to look like Vettel's lackey. I can understand the viewpoint that drivers are there to race, and we want to see just that, but when it means that one driver thinks himself more important than the team, action needs to be taken by the team principal and I think John Watson is right in so far as the options are few.
     
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  15. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

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    I think Red Bull have already punished Vettel. They always always stick up for him but after the last race they publicly criticised him in the mainstream press. I think their punishment to Vettel is simply to not protect him, to show him that the team is actually worth something.
     
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  16. Big Ern

    Big Ern Lord, Master, Guru & Emperor

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    This has been brewing for years, the main antagonist has been Webber, with his constant snidey remarks to the press about Vettel and red bull, his flagrant ignoring of team-orders in Silverstone in 2011, the biter has been bitten, now people have suddenly changed their view on team-orders because of who is involved, hypocrisy at it finest
     
    #16
  17. TomTom94

    TomTom94 Well-Known Member

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    please log in to view this image


    TIME PARADOX
     
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  18. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

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    What a superb piece of writing. Regardless of whether I agree 100%, this is one of the best contributions I've seen in any forum for a very, very long time.

    Simply excellent.

    –And thoroughly enjoyable. Thankyou,
    TomTom: I doubt if it'll be beta'd for a long time!
     
    #18
  19. u408379965

    u408379965 Well-Known Member

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  20. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member Forum Moderator

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    #20

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