That's a great film, TSS. A true story of course, about the abduction of the German Commander, General Kreipe. The man who led the raiding party, played by Dirk Bogarde in the film, was an amazing character called Patrick Leigh Fermor. When he was 18 in 1933 he decided to walk from the Hook of Holland to Constantinople (now Istanbul) and made his way up the Rhine and down the Danube, sleeping where he could, in barns and country houses and castles when he was lucky. He wrote 2 books about this trip, "A Time of Gifts" and "Between the Woods and the Water", which are a fantastic read. He wrote loads of other books as well. I don't suppose he would have thought much of footballers making fascist salutes anyway.
Not sporting related, but the time I actually remember in detail was going late into a local restaurant, and there was a German couple in front of us, who I think had been waiting for a while. There was one table left for the evening and the proprietor signalled to the waiter to take the German couple on a meandering route to the table while he shot us straight there. The German couple protested, as did we on their part, but the proprietor assured me that all was well. The next day I saw him outside his restaurant again and he told me that it was because when he'd asked us to come into his restaurant, the previous day, and we said we possibly might, he took that as a yes, with a wink from his eye. He knew I knew better.
Yeah, I've looked up a bit of data on Patrick Leigh Fermor, myself. I've got an entire forest of books to read through coming up, but I shall make a note to read those two as well. EDIT: I love that film too.
I think a question I would ask the youngster is why did you make that kind of gesture anyway? If he didn't actually know it's meaning as is suggested, what meaning did it have for him? I have asked some Greek youngsters staying at the hotel attached to my golf club if they knew the meaning of the salute they said there is no way he would not have known the significance. Their age ranges are 17 to 27 one was soon to start university two were ex university the other two educated in normal education system. What I am trying to say is that all walks of life or education standard from Greece or its Islands would have known the salutes significance. I asked if they thought the punishment just and to a man they thought it was! That was a surprise.... Two of them were Liverpool fans and were down at the match on Saturday and joined in a conversation they overheard about the game, I was having this morning so I asked the same question as the op.
If I was to score, I would settle with a simple fist pump then back to the half way line, in the manner shown below. [video=youtube;dRU27gPd-RA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRU27gPd-RA[/video]
So I was playing football last night and a guy on my team scored. Now in most situations people clap and goo "Weey" or "Good goal", but no not completely this time. After the guy scored he went for the old Nazi salute, as he boomed back up the pitch in jubilation from scoring his goal. My first thought was "You fcng arle" but then I went with the low hand clap, and a quiet nod. I bet up and down the country this week and weekend people will be living out the dreams of our fellow third reich.
Anyone should be allowed to make a Nazi salute. For me, I don't think there's anything wrong with supporting any regime. Other than the fact of course that their choice in the best regime is frankly wrong. But nevertheless, democracy states that we have freedom of opinion and freedom to, peacefully, express that opinion. It only becomes wrong when he carries out some harmful practices associated with the regime. I for one am unaware that he persecuted any Jews or invaded any countries. I don't think he should be banned.
The fascist salute is a wee bit touchy in Greece at the moment, what with neo-fascists beating and murdering immigrants on a fairly regular basis right now.
I just can't believe that anyone in their right mind can come out with a statement of such mind-boggling ignorance and stupidity. Have you never studied history man? The point is that people who support the Nazis support those who did persecute the Jews, anyone of a liberal disposition, trade unionists, gypsies, homosexuals, and anyone who didn't fit the Nazis' idea of racial purity.
I do study History thank you, I am currently studying it at A-Level. I also study Philosophy, specialising in Political Philosophy, and I currently hold an offer to study it at Cambridge next year. So I do not appreciate being called ignorant and stupid in this department. Not that I would appreciate it any more if I dropped out of education at 16. Anyone has a right to their belief. They may not (and almost certainly do not in this case) have the right for their belief to be respected, or to be seen as true. However, they still have a right to that belief, and to hold it without being punished (as in the case of the Greek footballer). Of course this is my own personal belief, and if you think that it is a crime merely to hold a belief that does not conform to our society's morals and values, so be it, but it is unfair to ridicule me for disagreeing with you. Of course, I would not respect a Nazi. I would try whole-heartedly to convince them away from Nazism. But to say that they cannot even hold that belief, and to punish them for holding it, for me, is wrong.
If you are a student of history then you have no excuse for your view. Try visiting a town in France called Oradour-sur-Glane, where the Nazis executed every living soul because they suspected there were Resistance supporters there. Or go to Amsterdam and visit the Anne Franck museum. Or go the whole hog and visit Auschwitz. Maybe you'll still think Nazi supporters have a right to their beliefs then. Or maybe you won't. I apologise for inferring you are stupid, but I feel so strongly on this subject that I can't get my head round other people not feeling the same.
Of course I agree Nazism is wrong. And yes, as a matter of fact I have actually visited a Nazi concentration camp, and seen the pit in which the victims were shot and killed. Yes, of course, it was horrific. Nevertheless, people have a right to hold whatever opinion they want to believe, that's a basic principle of liberty. I am perhaps an abnormally strong libertarian, so perhaps it is unsurprising that you do not agree. But, back to the main topic, I do not see it to be right that this player should be banned for expressing a political view which he has a right to hold. If of course he was even expressing a political view and he was aware at the time of the significance of the salute.
He has a right to make the salute; the Greek FA has a right to ban him from representing their country as a result. Freedom for everyone!
I totally agree with SaintBird. The reason we fought against a Fascist dictatorship was so people had the right to express their personal opinions without fear of prosecution.
Exactly, man. It's really not that hard. Freedom of speech means you have the right to state your opinion without GOVERNMENT interferance. There's nothing that says other private parties have to accept it. In fact, they are free to act against it because that is their freedom of speech. True government neutrality means he gets to say what he wants and any other private party is free to respond how they want. There is no fundamental right to play for your country's football association in a FIFA competition. Trillions of people like me are denied that opportunity every day for the simple arbitrary reason that I suck at football. I can understand disagreeing with the Greek FA's actions, as everyone is entitled to their opinion and the right to express it. But when you claim that this player is being opressed in some way you are actually anti-free speech as you are denying the right of a private party (the Greek FA) to choose who represents them.
Very good point, however I do not think that completely works in this case. The FA is actually (at least partially, not sure if wholly) government funded. The FA is not a private party. Hence, the FA should not hold the right to punish those who hold an opinion, as this is a form of government oppression.
OK, let me clear up a couple of things here. First of all, I totally agree that people can hold whatever views they want in their private lives. As Sharpshooter says above, this is what the Second World War was fought to preserve. However, it is when those views start getting expressed in public, in ways that affect other people, that it becomes difficult. As I said earlier, there are still millions of people still alive who were scarred by what the Nazis did, just as there are millions scarred by Communism, or the Khmer Rouge, or Idi Amin, or the British Empire. If you are going to let people, who may not understand fully what they are doing, give Nazi salutes without any sanctions whatever, you will alienate all those who still live in the shadow of that era. As I said earlier, this footballer should be banned, to teach him the error of his ways, but not for life. That is disproportionate, and borders on fascism in itself, as someone else has said. Let the ban be for a few games only.
