Unfortunately giving written opinions on forums is not the same thing as having heated verbal debates (note I use the word debate and not slanging matchs) where opinions are given and responded to. Whatever I never write something on here that I would be prepared to say to someone across the table in an office or the pub, but I fear many people are not the same. People are entitled to free speech but it seems that on forums it is very easy for people to start throwing bombs at other posters in attempts to ridicule their arguments and not allow a debate to be "debated". I think there is a big difference between contributing to adult discussions on the social and economics reasons behind population demographic changes and simply sitting behind a keyboard and then throwing insults and making sweeping statements just because you dont like the opinion being offered. There should not be a need for mods to get involved if people were able to argue in an adult intelligent way.
That's all well and good mate but it still doesn't explain why Mods get involved at all. I happen to agree with you on your general premise and last nights thread was being debated very well IMO barring one or two guys getting a bit heated with one another. Why can't you just let them at it and continue your dialogue with the other posters? They're not hurling insults at you after all and even if they were, there's no need for you to respond. We're grown adults. We don't need teacher to take us by the hand through all these discussions surely?
The day Spain treat Catalans equally is the day we will be Spanish. We are treated like foreigners so that is exactly what we are. I AM Catalan.
Believe me Staines, if 3 million Hong Kong yan had come to Britain in the 90s, we would be an economically and culturally richer place for it. Look at Australia, when I first went there in the 80s it really felt like Britain in the 60s, sleepy, quiet, monocultural, clock watcher workers. Now with a lot of immigration, especially from East Asia, its one of the most exciting and lively places I go to (well, the cities at least). Lot down to immigration of hard working, entrepreneurial types, who don't take jobs, they create them. And not just East Asian immigrants doing this either. For me immigration has made London, New York, Sydney the greatest cities on earth, as DT says, mini-states of their own. If people can't cope with change, sorry but its going to happen anyway, its more fun to watch the dynamic grow. Feel nostalgic by all means (I certainly do). Integration happens over generations - but still pretty quickly - think of the Ugandan Asians who arrived in the 70s, (one of the British government decisions that I am most proud of) with literally nothing. No one thinks of them as a distinct group now. But selfishly I don't mind lack of integration, as long as people get on and respect, or at least tolerate, diversity. I love being able to visit a dozen different countries in a good days walk across London. Every time we walk from Westfield to LR, my son and I try to identify the many different languages we hear spoken in a half mile stroll. What I will never pretend to know anything about or comment on is what this all feels like from the immigrant or ethnic minority (don't think thats the right phrase, but anyway...) perspective - because I don't know and can never know except by living through it. I have lived in pretty monocultural places - Hong Kong (bit of an oddity) and Italy, and I spend a lot of time in Japan, the most monocultural of all. I know that the Chinese and Japanese have very ingrained ideas (horrible generalisation, obviously not all of them), and pretty unpleasant ones, about race. I once knew enough Cantonese to understand the abuse (not regular) thrown at the gweilo on the street in some parts of HK. But I have always been in a privileged position, able to walk away whenever I wanted to - very different to many genuinely immigrant experiences. And I have never (knowingly) been discriminated against - I can imagine but cannot genuinely claim to know what this feels like. And if we can have this debate on those terms - respectful and recognising that our different personal experiences shape our perspective, and the first step of self moderation is self awareness about where we get our perspective from - then long may it continue.
Oh lots of things, xenophobia and general aggression towards us, paying more tax than anyone else paying for things central Spain gets but we don't, attacks on our culture and language, lies about us being spread in media in attempt to demonize us. They cripple us with their ridiculous tax demands then when we need some money back from them they refuse to help, they sent people in during the early elections (for Catalan gov) late last year to purposely **** ballots. The way this current Spanish government are behaving is reminiscent of Franco, not just the way they are treating Catalonia but the way they are handling all affairs in Spain. Catalonia has the strongest economy (in terms of earning) than anywhere else in Spain, if it wasn't for the Spanish government we'd actually be in a stable financial state but instead we're in crisis, Catalonia would be better off on it's own the Spaniards do not like us anyway we are kept around because of the money. We've been dubbed The Polish (but in Spanish of course) in mockery of the Nazi's treatment of Poland, comparing it to the invasion and treatment of Catalans. I have nothing against the Spanish in general, I of course know many Spaniards who are lovely people I just want us to be separated
PS Just re-read my post above and my thoughts aren't very well joined up, but hope the volume is up to speed Brix. Beginning to worry as I am in the airport waiting to get a connection to the east coast of the States to fly home - arrive back early tomorrow morning, shower, shave then drive down for the match. But the weather is awful, planes being cancelled all over the place, the whole thing could go tits up.......well, no use worrying about things you can't change.
That all sounds terrible and I'm not doubting you for one minute but I find it strange a Spaniard talking about his fellow Spaniards as if they're foreigners. Surely you don't want to balkanise your Country and split it up into tiny pieces?
I can understand how it would seem strange, I would no doubt think the same. Technically they are not foreign and neither am I but the attitude we hold towards each other is that strong that we do feel like foreigners. And that is the thing mate I have been made to feel as though Spain isn't my country I've tried very hard to be 'Spanish' but the fact is they don't want us to be so the break up of Spain doesn't concern me, I care about the future of Catalonia as that is my country. I don't wish anything bad upon the rest of Spain I hope you understand I just don't see how we can continue this horrible relationship with each other. Recently a Spanish reporter wrote an article about how Pontius Pilate's guards when authorizing the execution of Christ were in fact Catalan. Utterly ridiculous but it's the kind of bollocks we have to endure. I can see how it's difficult to understand how someone can feel like their own country men are foreigners but for me and many others both Catalan and Spanish it is difficult to feel as though we aren't
That is indeed utterly ridiculous. I happen to know for a fact that the guards were in fact....Welsh (only joking, if any of the Swansea boys come snooping!)
“Before our white brothers came to civilize us we had no jails. Therefore we had no criminals. You can't have criminals without a jail. We had no locks or keys, and so we had no thieves. If a an was so poor that he had no horse, tipi or blanket, someone gave him these things. We were to uncivilized to set much value on personal belongings. We wanted to have things only in order to give them away. We had no money, and therefore a man's worth couldn't be measured by it. We had no written law, no attorneys or politicians, therefore we couldn't cheat. We really were in a bad way before the white men came, and I don't know how we managed to get along without these basic things which, we are told, are absolutly necessary to make a civilized society.”*―*John Fire Lame Deer - Native North American Indian
The only comments I am making on this thread are, you cant tell another person what their nationality is. If somebody feels they are Catalan, not Spanish, thats what they are. I lived in Spain for four years and I entirely agree with everything Cristofol has said. The Spanish team I supported was Barcelona. I used to walk around Alicante wearing my Barca shirt and the abuse I received from the local Read Madrid supporters was pure nasty. A public bus driver one day said I couldn't get on the bus with a Barca shirt. He wasn't joking. He was serious. Swords, the nearest comparison I can think of is the North of Ireland. Nationalists there feel Irish and not British. Unionists feel British and not Irish. Their nationality is what they feel they want to feel themselves and nobody should ram down their throats what they are/arn't. Every individual has the right to be what they feel they are. Good luck next year in the referendum on Independence Cristobal. I know many decent Catalan people (and Spanish) and I am sure you as a people will make the right choice.
That is terribly unfortunate mate. I hate to see Countries breaking up. The more Countries that are joined together, the better IMO. I do hope you can all reconcile your differences without the need to split the Nation.
Thanks mate, sorry to hear about how you were treated by some. Personally I want to be separated as I said but what is most important is that the choice whether it be freedom or continuing the union with Spain is that it is our choice and not theirs. Cheers for your support though, appreciate it
No probs Cristobal. Don't worry how they treated me. I could handle myself with them. A "toma por culo" and raised finger usually put them in their place. Adeu.
