2 Points from 9: Is it only me who questions BR?

I disagree. There are probably not many 'plastic' Liverpool fans around to be honest. Those that have supported us for 25 years or so (like me) can hardly be called fair weather supporters. You could also argue that those that have been supporting for much less are even more loyal seeing as they have had less to celebrate. I do agree that modern, media driven 'sensationalism' is creating 'fans' who are too quick to want change. Most fans will have a level of patience, as long as they can see progress and that the gap is closing, no matter how slowly. Has SOS rightly points out we had a decent season last season really, bedding in a number of new players, 2 cupfinal (one a victory, the other a close loss when the other team had all the momentum with them), and we played some great football, albeit we had some dissappointing results.

Don't kid yourself tht you are a better 'fan' than anyone else. We are all the same, wanting the same outcome, success, we all have patience otherwise we wouldn't be supporting Liverpool to be fair. Some just want to see progress, even at a minute level that will indicate we are getting closer to the objectives.

edit; by your definition MuppetFinder is the best LFC fan around!!!!!

 

I never stated I was a better fan than anyone else. However those who snipe and gripe need to think about the consequences of their actions.

The financial 'evidence' doesn't hold too much water for me. BR has bought few - some have settled in quicker than others but it is still too early to judge. I think people are actually buying into the 'immediate success' horse **** they are fed by the media.

BR should be afforded time and reasonable resources - maybe we could sensibly have thus conversation in 2014/15 season?

 

You seem to be getting annoyed over nothing! I never said we should sack BR, merely that we should look at IF we have had any progression under him this season. When you look at other clubs in the prem, Like Swansea, Everton, Spurs, WBA they have all progressed under either new managers or Moyes who is considered one of the best managers around bar the top 4. BR has spent a decent wad, and he chose to get rid of Carrol, even though we had no other options at the time.

Taking reasonable stock at the end of the season is not too early in my opinion. I wanted Rafa to stay when he left, I thought Kenny should have been given 1 more season. With BR, right now I am undecided, but we should have progressed this season because we actually played well for most of last season, there wasn't that much wrong. If we finish the season as we are now, behid Everton, WBA, and Swansea, then we have actually gone backwards, especially when you factor in the cups. One fan believes a responsible fan is giving a manager more time, even if going backwards. Another fan believes wasting time on a manager that was always a long shot and is sending the club backwards is irresponsible. Merely different opinions and instincts, no-one is better or worse, you say you are not purporting to be better, yet you keep criticizing other supporters for having a different opinion!

 

Is right mate. He was suggesting that having a view that didn't mirror his 'leave it for a year before daring to question', was in some way potentially dangerous, which I found amusing tbh.

 

It's not having the opinion that is the issue it's the way some fans display it that discredits LFC fans as a whole that is the problem. I'm certainly not aiming this at you but I'm sick of so called fans falling over themselves to undermine our mgr.

Btw this is really not me being angry trust me! there's more to life than a football forum!

You know what? BR prob isn't our new messiah but we will never find the right man if he is ousted after a season or two?!

 

Anything worse than 6th, and he needs to leave. What's the point of being patient with someone who's not made any improvements from the previous manager. How is it that the Spuds sit above us, when they had a new manager just like us in the start of the season and also that we have an overall better team. Maybe it's simply the managers that make the difference.

BR's made far too many mistakes this season.It's very clear that he's still learning the trade and we are being the guinea pig, which is what frustrates me the most. Though i do agree that he may need time, top managers always find a way and they do it fast. A whole season is more than enough time for him to make a mark. And by the end of the season if there's not any improvement, it would only be foolish to still keep him.

 

This statement is so flawed. Spurs finished 4th with a good squad that worked and played well together when AVB took the job. We finished further down the table, on relegation form (not an exaggeration) when BR took over.

Think the managers make a difference too, AVB managed Porto to the EL final and learned some tough lessons at Chelsea. All in all they were and still are favorites to finish above us.

Who has the better squad is debatable, but Spurs certainly have the better team.

 

Please find someone else to 'support'

 

Just because I state my personal opinion?

 

**** that. If I don't think that Rodgers is up to it, I don't have to suck it up.

As far as all the other stuff being written; I am all for allowing a manager to change the team in the long term, IF that manager is capable. BR is good for PR, Nothing else....time will show this...unfortunately, at which point where will we be? **** knows.

Book mark the thread and ram it back down my throat if I'm proven wrong.....but don't tell me to 'suck it up' - that's pathetic!

 

You see I don't mind opinions but when they're stated as fact and backed up with further dubious opinion it starts to grate.

1) what makes you say we have a better team than spurs? We have finished behind them 2 years running, and look to for a 3rd, various combo's of managers so how in gods name is this proof its BR's fault? Where is your proof we currently have a better team this year? I usually go by the league standings myself but do explain how I'm going wrong? So your basing the fact that BR hasn't overhauled the 4 place difference from last year in 4 months as proof eh?

Again with the all the "should be solved in a year or sacked" You're predicting failure to back up your obvious dislike already for the manager & to have a whinge now. How about waiting to even your own deadline above before complaining eh?

2) top managers always find a way & fast eh? Which ones? This is ridiculously over simplified. It does not take into account relevant positions, player situations of the club they're coming to, funds available, who they are having to match or overhaul in the league.

I mean AVB must be a failure right? 4 months in the job & spurs haven't got any higher in the league than last year. He mustn't have any ambition, spurs should get rid! eh? I mean a whole season & no improvement right?

Are we a guinea pig? From top to bottom yes. Why? We were 20 years out of date & are learning from top to bottom how to be a modern club. You don't like that & want instant success I'd go with the suggestion to follow another club. Not because I don't think you are a true supporter but because you're going to be continually disappointed with this one for a good few years with your expectations based far away from the reality of our clubs situation.

I find it ironic that those who have hope we're on the up are also the ones who see the average level we are at right now. Yet we're accused of accepting mediocrity & believing fairy stories at the same time.

Yet those that see nothing good at the moment somehow believe we should be somehow transforming from midtable to challengers in a few months

Very very strange.

 

Really?

Ferguson: Joined United in late '86? Now ok he did take them up the table pretty quickly but even after finishing second behind us in '88 (I think) he then finished mid table the year after. He only won his first trophy 3 and a half years after joining and his first title 6 years after.

Shankly: Joined in '59 and got promoted in what '62?

George Graham: Joined in '86 and won the title in '89.

Busby: Joined after the war but won his first title 7 years later (roughly).

Clough: Joined Forest in '75 and won his first title in '78.

Kendal: Joined the bitters in '81 and won his first title in '85.

Just a few examples of league winners and damn good managers who haven't necessarily "done it fast". Before anyone even attempts to say I'm comparing Rodgers to any of the above....obviously I'm not

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I wonder if the fellas who did this banner still get reminded of it to this very day?

 

So you don't think we are under-performing then? You don't see the once good defence becoming more fragile each game? You don't see the huge tactical errors being made game after game? You're happy with BR trotting out 'well we're disappointed.....' BR has been found out, some of us see it quicker than others.

I, for one, aspire to much greater things than what i see. Sure, I can wait, I can get behind the (right) manager.....but I don't think for a nano second that it's BR......and I have every right to say so, as has the guy you dissected above. If you are so happy with mediocrity, perhaps it's you who should look to another club? Villa could do with some support

 

Nice little temper tantrum there Kenny.

Now when you've calmed down we can have a sensible discussion.

And BTW I wasn't suggesting he should look for a new club to support for my benefit, rather for him to look at why he supports a team & whether under this manager or the next he would get satisfaction any time soon. In other words to look at reality.

 

I would hazard a guess they're fairly happy to have been proven wrong

 

Patronising ****er

Reality is that we are grossly under-performing. Another reality is that if you can't see that then you're blind....Not much more to say really.

 

I'm not going to shout you down, you are entitled to your opinion.

I think BR is far from perfect, and he isn't who I would have chosen to take the job. He is, however, who we have.

He has made a few mistakes I. The transfer market, but Kenny did too, and Hodgson, and Benitez. I think had Rafa not been sacked and given the money we have spent the past three years we would be well in the top four.

I don't think our defence has suddenly gone from being one of the best in the league to being ****. A lot of the problems result from them trying to implement a new system. I think the manager and coaching staff are at fault for not plugging the recurring gaps that appear during the transition.

BR must also be blamed for the lack of urgency we show at times. I get that he is trying to get is to play passing patient football. When you are two down with ten mins to go its time to get your arse in gear.

For all his faults, I respect BR for sticking to a plan. He was the owners choice and, as long as we don't fall below mid table, he should and will be given time to have a crack at making his system work.

It would be destructive to keep changing managers every year. As things stand, I can't see us challenging for fourth anytime soon, and we might not under BR, bit we won't know unless we give him time

Once you chose who you support, you're stuck with it. Whatever happens we should get behind the team, support them however we can. The current regime seem a bit cluless, but at least we are financially stable and look a lot more stable than many others.

 

Sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forwards. Fergie made Man Utd worse before they got better. Same with Rafa, we finish fourth the season before he arrived but fifth in his first season.

 

I occasionally indulge in self abuse thats true, and if you are going to insist on stamping your feet I'll treat you as such but ok, if below is what passes as you discussing the subject I'll address it.

QUOTE=KENNY_KOP_KING;4283334]
So you don't think we are under-performing then? You don't see the once good defence becoming more fragile each game? You don't see the huge tactical errors being made game after game? You're happy with BR trotting out 'well we're disappointed.....' BR has been found out, some of us see it quicker than others.

I, for one, aspire to much greater things than what i see. Sure, I can wait, I can get behind the (right) manager.....but I don't think for a nano second that it's BR......and I have every right to say so, as has the guy you dissected above. If you are so happy with mediocrity, perhaps it's you who should look to another club? Villa could do with some support [/QUOTE]

Q.Do I think we are under performing?

A. Yes, but not as much as you obviously. For me to think we are drastically under performing I would first have to think that right this minute this collection of players can play at a much much higher level. I don't. I think the majority of these young players can definitely improve, a small few may even become exceptional but not this year and some of this squad will not get much better. These are the players I hope BR replaces with exceptional talent rather than more hopefuls & that the owners allow him to do so.

Q. A once good defence now fragile.

A. Yes, it's a concern I share & have voiced on match threads but not under the heading BR must burn! I believe part of it is down to BR insisting defenders & midfield play a system they either can't or won't play properly. I mostly lay it at the players feet however, largely in midfield laziness & a lack of mental toughness but yes, it's up to BR to adjust their thinking & he hasn't yet done it. Will he with these players? Don't know. Does he know how with any set of players? Don't yet know.

Q do You see the huge tactical errors every game?

A. No, I see some tactical naivety or more of a too dogged determination not to give in to lazy bastard players & insist they play his way. Of course if your successful in ousting this manager you've yet again reinforced in these players minds that if they can't be arsed, ignore the manager they'll get rid of him as a problem in their lives. That should bode well for BR's replacement introducing his plan a, b or c won't it? BR maybe has to learn when proving a point & getting the points diverge but I can support his effort to hammer his system into the players heads before introducing variations. I mean this lot are confused with plan A. With that in mind; would you want to introduce variations!!!

Q. You are happy with BR talking ****e?

A. No I'm not, again, like others I think he's trying to play the media game & also protect his players (bar one attempt at public chastisement) and yes when the performance of players hasn't been good enough he shouldn't use the phrase "I can't fault the effort". It makes us feel like we're being treated like mugs. But: I don't think that's his intention. As I said I think he's trying to publicly protect his players. Over all I'm glad as a lot of them are young. They won't always be.

Q. Do You see things slower?

A. I don't see far away very well if that counts?

Q. Do I have the right to my opinion?

A. Yes Kenny you do, and you've given it repeatedly in this and a fair few other threads recently. I understand. You aren't happy & you hold BR totally responsible & you want rid. So will that mean we won't get the same repetitive rant in every thread from now on or do you really mean I have to change my mind & agree with your opinion for you to be happy?

Q. Aspirations of greatness or acceptance of mediocrity?

A. I have a wee home truth for you: you can aspire to greatness all you want, it doesn't mean you get it. I also hope for the return to success we once enjoyed I just don't believe it can happen under any manager in the space of a couple of months.

I don't believe recognising what exact stage we are at & with a bit of objective & logical thought; calculating that it will take quite a bit of time to even be in a position to compete for that "greatness" is accepting mediocrity.

But then I don't appear to have this super gut instinct, this prescient power to see into the future that some others claim to have. Or maybe I just have a lower FIFA 2013 ranking.

Villa? No thanks, I love my team, I've loved them when they were sublime & I love them when they are average. And I "aspire" to love them when they are great again.

And I've backed every manager our club has employed. I don't as a tendency turn on them for a few bad results. Your namesake lost his job because a fair few fans didn't think he was the (right) manager so decided not to get behind him either. That got you Brendan. Imagine who's next?

 

Q.Do I think we are under performing?

A. Yes, but not as much as you obviously. For me to think we are drastically under performing I would first have to think that right this minute this collection of players can play at a much much higher level. I don't. I think the majority of these young players can definitely improve, a small few may even become exceptional but not this year and some of this squad will not get much better. These are the players I hope BR replaces with exceptional talent rather than more hopefuls & that the owners allow him to do so.

Q. A once good defence now fragile.

A. Yes, it's a concern I share & have voiced on match threads but not under the heading BR must burn! I believe part of it is down to BR insisting defenders & midfield play a system they either can't or won't play properly. I mostly lay it at the players feet however, largely in midfield laziness & a lack of mental toughness but yes, it's up to BR to adjust their thinking & he hasn't yet done it. Will he with these players? Don't know. Does he know how with any set of players? Don't yet know.

Q do You see the huge tactical errors every game?

A. No, I see some tactical naivety or more of a too dogged determination not to give in to lazy bastard players & insist they play his way. Of course if your successful in ousting this manager you've yet again reinforced in these players minds that if they can't be arsed, ignore the manager they'll get rid of him as a problem in their lives. That should bode well for BR's replacement introducing his plan a, b or c won't it? BR maybe has to learn when proving a point & getting the points diverge but I can support his effort to hammer his system into the players heads before introducing variations. I mean this lot are confused with plan A. With that in mind; would you want to introduce variations!!!

Q. You are happy with BR talking ****e?

A. No I'm not, again, like others I think he's trying to play the media game & also protect his players (bar one attempt at public chastisement) and yes when the performance of players hasn't been good enough he shouldn't use the phrase "I can't fault the effort". It makes us feel like we're being treated like mugs. But: I don't think that's his intention. As I said I think he's trying to publicly protect his players. Over all I'm glad as a lot of them are young. They won't always be.

Q. Do You see things slower?

A. I don't see far away very well if that counts?

Q. Do I have the right to my opinion?

A. Yes Kenny you do, and you've given it repeatedly in this and a fair few other threads recently. I understand. You aren't happy & you hold BR totally responsible & you want rid. So will that mean we won't get the same repetitive rant in every thread from now on or do you really mean I have to change my mind & agree with your opinion for you to be happy?

Q. Aspirations of greatness or acceptance of mediocrity?

A. I have a wee home truth for you: you can aspire to greatness all you want, it doesn't mean you get it. I also hope for the return to success we once enjoyed I just don't believe it can happen under any manager in the space of a couple of months.

I don't believe recognising what exact stage we are at & with a bit of objective & logical thought; calculating that it will take quite a bit of time to even be in a position to compete for that "greatness" is accepting mediocrity.

But then I don't appear to have this super gut instinct, this prescient power to see into the future that some others claim to have. Or maybe I just have a lower FIFA 2013 ranking.

Villa? No thanks, I love my team, I've loved them when they were sublime & I love them when they are average. And I "aspire" to love them when they are great again.

And I've backed every manager our club has employed. I don't as a tendency turn on them for a few bad results. Your namesake lost his job because a fair few fans didn't think he was the (right) manager so decided not to get behind him either. That got you Brendan. Imagine who's next?[/QUOTE]

You assume that i'm stamping my feet; couldn't be further from the truth but i suspect that you use this as a means to justify your infantile response....I may be wrong and it's because you're a complete twat

It's the players fault...they can't compete at a higher level. Utter Bullshit. Reina, Johnson, Skerts, Agger, Carra, Gerrard, Lucas, Suarez....all aren't capable? Stupid response frankly...excuse the pun.

I show my disdain for the current set up no less than you show blind faith......I may be wrong, and point this out on every thread to be fair; you seem to fail to recognize that my critique is measured and I usually respect others views - yours is more personal, so I don't respect it at all. As for giving the same repetitive 'rant' (which it never is unless you just pigeon hole everything critical into a 'stamping feet, toys out of pram, rant) - well that depends if BR keeps making the same mistakes and serving up the turgid ****e we've seen so far this season doesn't it eh?

You speak to people as though they're idiots; wee home truths? People like you seem to know everything but have no answers. there is no truth, just complete blind faith. Thats a big **** off truth. I expect more for LFC than I believe that BR is capable of giving? Why do you take such offence at that? On one hand you concede that i'm entitled to opinion, on the other you stand on the high morale ground belittling it.....I actually responded to your comment to another fan saying that he should find another club....it's pathetic.

You appear to suggest that I don't have any logical thought, that I am not rational, that I have not supported my team as you have........all personal bollocks to justify your position of complete blind faith in someone who has never delivered at the highest level.....and shows no sign of doing so....but hey, if it makes you feel better for blindly following the 'pied piper' be my guest, just don't expect me to sit by and take it because dirtyfrank said so; Unlike you, I'm no lemming

So, to summarise; just because i don't share the same views as you, it doesn't make me an idiot