2 Points from 9: Is it only me who questions BR?

According to the commentator yesterday when LFC we're making their subs you have'' the strongest squad you've had in a long time'' - do you think he was taking the piss ?

 

I just don't get that logic. He's only been significantly outspend by Chelsea this season, aside from them the budget he's had (£40m net) is as big as anyone elses.

He took over a side that finished 7th last season & made it to 2 cup finals.

He's now spent another £40m, you've flopped in the domestic cups & you're currently sat 9th - how does that constitute 'doing ok' all things considered?

 

If your point is the results are not good enough, I think there is no argument there. But if you think Brendan has had enough time to get it all working right that's a different matter.

Having patience is hard when you wait all week and see that kind of performance.

As usual we're not ruthless with chances, again it cost us, there's little to debate, had we taken 1 and forced WBA to chase a goal we'd have been seeing a different game and you'd not be posting here re this.

It ain't if\but. The difference is essentially that small, one goal. The longer we go without one at home the more we get fkn tunnel vision and get beat.

 

We haven't finished above 6th for the last 3 seasons so consistently making cup finals would be a big ask - this is why Everton never do

We are 9th in the table at the moment granted, but I didn't think the season finished last night? Things would look so much better if we had of won last night (which lets be honest we should have) so I can't just write the whole thing off and start yelling Rodgers out because of this game.

 

On paper, we have a good team and should be doing much better. It's at least as good as Arsenal or Spurs' teams.

On the field, our attitude stinks towards playing 'lesser' clubs, and we don't turn up - hence all the dropped points this year. The only time we turn up against a weaker team is when we've just been rollocked by another. I fancy us to go put 4 past Swansea next week for this reason.

That's BR's fault for not kicking them up the arse every game and getting them mentally prepared because in this league, anyone can beat anyone.

I do, however, blame BR for subbing off Hendo and starting with Shelvey which I thought were poor decisions. Hendo is a box to box runner who gets into the area in goalscoring positions, we lost that when he came off. Shelvey out wide doesn't work and Suarez outwide isn't as effective - so that was a poor choice too.

 

That's always the risk of giving anyone time.

I do think that as someone suggested earlier our problem is a learning curve from everyone from inexperienced owners, managers & players.

The upshot is that it would take a great deal of luck under those circumstances not to get a lot of mistakes. Be that from uncovered genius at any or all those levels or a collapse of those around us. Neither was likely. So mistakes inevitable.

Will those mistakes condemn us to permanent mediocrity? Its possible. I think we've still plenty of wiggle room there. Its obviously not never ending.

And at the end of the day I will concentrate on the improvement (or not) of existing players and judge the new acquisitions based on effect, how much, realistic alternatives available at the time etc.

As a football fan and by no means an expert purist I balance two things, success in terms of competitions & the style of our play. I do like to see us win trophies; I'd love to see us win the league again but as much about being a fan is right now, in the crap, dreaming & hoping for future success. For some fans it never ever comes: should they stop supporting their team?

While I don't mind occasionally winning ugly I'd personally not find much satisfaction in us winning by being the only quality team or having unlimited funds or resorting to playing unattractive but efficient football with no entertainment value other than to wave stats & lists of trophies at others. Others might find that perfectly acceptable for their enjoyment; so I guess they are more unhappy over the course of their life than me. (Unless you're lucky enough to live through your clubs golden era which I have)

So deluded as I may be, I like the idea of what Rodgers is trying to bring/bring back to our play. Will he have to learn to play ugly to actually win trophies: yes. But I share the same fear he obviously does. If your mid table & you start playing like midtable you've lowered the bar already. There's a fine balance between. Building up and failing and cementing average in performance & me mentality.

 

I wouldn't expect you to be calling for his head, that's not what I was getting at.

It was the acceptance of what he'd delivered so far in terms of results compared to his budget, you appeared to be intimating that his budget was restricting him in some way, when it's been as good as any PL manager could realistically expect.

The season isn't over - that's true, but after 26 games you've got your 2nd lowest points tally in the PL era, that's not just a reflection of missing a few chances last night mate.

 

Do I really need to repeat myself? Okay, I shall.

I told everybody at season's start we'd get what was advertised by Brendan's mid-table record and that's what we've got.

I predicted we'd continue to either win handsomely - because this squad was already capable of that - or be pants. As advertised.

I predicted Reina would leave.

I didn't predict one of the top defensive partnerships in the league would turn to mush. But it seems to have done so. Who is that guy pretending to be Agger?

We played some brilliant football last season, which seems to have been forgotten by many. The difference is we could beat top ten teams - heck, even Hodgson beat Chelsea - and we were silverware winners. Kenny knew the value of that. I don't think John Henry does.

Kenny had a big job to do and I still feel betrayed that he wasn't given the patience this mid-table manager has been given without question. Our old coach didn't seem to need patience to forge a good unit at WBA. But you'd think we'd gone from Hodgson to Guardiola rather than classic pass and move to turgid, time-wasting cone-ball. This was not a huge revolution which requires years to get balanced.

Again the accounting muppets start throwing numbers about. Kenny got rid of Torres and Babel for Carroll and Suarez with loose change back but it gets labelled as over £60m spent. He got Bellamy on a free and £6m for Enrique. Doni looked more useful than Jones. Downing is starting to show why he was a decent buy. Henderson could be a future captain. All with a cut in the wages bill, as required. But this was labelled failure and a waste or "over £120m," as if selling one player for £50m and buying one for £35m should still result in a £35m squad improvement. That's dumbass accounting.

Bear in mind also that at the time of these buys every manager was saying there was a premium on Brit players due to the new home-grown rule. It wasn't as much FSG moolah as is made out but it was money which needed to be spent, considering where we were. That's so long ago that I almost forgot we lost Meireles, too.

What's done is done but one rebvuilding season under Kenny with a bunch of new players to settle in is being used to justify Rodgers' performance and it's bogus.

Whether Kenny's players would've improved under him or it's all Rodgers' doing can't be realistcally determined. But what are the chances? Maybe Rodgers can step up but FSG took a huge risk getting rid of a proven winner for a guy with no record to speak of. To my mind they took that risk at completely the wrong time, just as we were finding our feet again.

Are we any closer to giving teams "the worst 90 minutes of their lives" as Brendan promised? No. And it looks to me as if Brendan is losing faith in his own big plan to be the New Arsenal.

 

You probably could have just said, "I told you so".

 

I think that's exactly what he did, only with more eloquence & a certain amount of relish.

Given the stick he seems to take, I can't say I blame him tbh.

 

That is actually a lot more level headed but you are still bleating on about Rodgers after about 3/4 of his first season yet you stand up for said players ( Carroll, Downing, Lucas, etc) after the same amount. What did any of those players prove at their clubs ( excluding Lucas as he won a lot n Brazil) that showed they were worth the time? Were they all not at mediocre clubs, with mediocre records and stats then? Just can't have it both ways mate.

 

An individuals performance should always be assessed within the team framework as unless it's a weird job, one is normally bound by others performance; even a lone wolf sales guy is dependent on internal people to process the order and operations to make and deliver it. I am assessing BR based on his performance within the team. Please tell me what part of the team he has improved since last year? Can't score, can't defend, can't beat big teams, can't beat smaller teams regularly (no offence). We are ****e.

Of course it's different in todays era!! Jesus, do you think SAF's successor will be given 6 or 7 years to win something??? Whether we like it or not, results on the pitch drive UP the equity in the BRAND and it is this that is valued more than anything else. Football has changed since the 90's and is changing again (probably to our advantage if we don't waste time and capitalise) right now.....This is not my opinion....it's FACT! ;-)

The race for football fans loyalty is well and truly on & competition globally is stiff: How many fans who are choosing a club right now would of been turned by yesterdays result? None. We need the next generation of fans on board to generate revenue, to keep us as a big club and subsequently, our hopes and dreams alive!

So, you see my friend, the modern age is COMPLETELY different to SAF's first few years in charge.

BR has had exactly the same amount of time as Clarke....and has a better set of players.....Why shouldn't we expect more?

One of my bosses once told me this; hire slowly, fire quickly. Why? Because more damage is done if you have the wrong person in your organisation; BR is a PR puppy. He is no saviour and not a patch on any of the top 6 or 7 managers. Peddling 'his' pass and move philosophy as his own and we all bought it! He is now being found out. You'll all come to my way of thinking soon

 

my point and as it happens your bosses as to why you can't compare to BR job wise still stands:

BR can not "fire" his under performing staff at least not to perform the change as fast as you would like. He can only (to continue your comparison) shift them sideways on full pay. He's also been told by his bosses that he can't bring in any more staff in until he gets rid of the others. So; if I'm a manager under those conditions I'd be unhappy to be evaluated negatively on my performance if I've identified the issue: (rubbish staff already here when I got here, that don't fit the plan agreed by my bosses) and been told i cant fix the problem i was hired for but its still my fault??


On the changing game. You can't just skip twenty years of us not changing for the new model because you've now realised we didn't do it when we should have. You still have to go through the process & without the big bucks its evolving not revolution that will make it happen. Ask Leeds or Middlesborough what over extending your reach to attempt to satisfy some inpatient fans does for you.

No progress with a cycle of twenty mangers is no different to "new" fans than no progress with 5. In fact if the fan is anyway intelligent its worse because your club lacks any defining character. Success attracts new fans and playing Russian roulette without huge pots of cash to give every new manager will make sure we never get it:

You can not, must not have a sack em quick approach to managers in a arena where so much power lies with the players already. You would be emphasising to those players they will never get held to account. Guarantees no improvement in performance. Why would they? Its never their fault apparently.

But by all means if you are correct and enough chicken littles put enough pressure on our owners to adopt that insane approach I'll do an MFG each & everytime when your left scratching your head blaming the latest manager for why we're still "in transition"
Only difference is I'll not hate every new one for the dumping of the old.

Oh and how many managers do we go through before we realise the recruitment process is flawed & our expectations need revising, 1, 2 20?

So we don't have the cash to adopt the Chelsea approach. We aren't in a blossoming league & media situation like united where to take advantage of first & stay ahead of the game.

All of this does not mean you keep a dud just for "stability" but unless your prescient like MFG you can not seriously expect the majority of fans to keep throwing away a manager 4 months after they see no improvement .

Oh & on MFG Tobes you little Stirrer, its not that he believed BR Is rubbish (Kenny here does too) its the sheer negatively & hatred he appears to hold for all aspects of the club from owners to fellow fans that is a turn off.

If he'd delivered his reasoning more like he did in this thread he'd have been listened to. Nobody likes to repeatedly called stupid just because they disagree with someone.

 

look honestly i think the guy is a clown. I've given him some time and i think he talks out of his arse and he bascially flip flopped this week with shelvey. I really don't know what he saw in training and yes shevely work reasonably hard last night but COME ON! downing and shevely??? oh i don't doubt borini was awfu lwhen he came on but seriously! if anyone though that team was going to be 3-0 at half time or something was mad. I don't doubt i HOPED but seeing the team sheet and knowing that yet again the rumoured team was right and this sleelction was made led me to dread kick off.

He said after the game they targetted to win.. perhaps he should have set up to do that!

I totally agree we can't do a cheslea right thats anothe rpoint entirely... however the REALITY is we just dropped 20mil in the january window, and mos tof the time have a decent net spend compared to those teams now around us... we are a ver privilged club and need to realsie that. wE do not deliver anything like the return that moeny would be expected to deliver.

Rodgers has had a whole summer and 2/3s of a season and frankly 50% of his signings are flops just like the last guy. he's no better off in the league and out of the cups but yes he has us trying to play a barca game.... but the REALITY again is passing it about between cbs and the goalie is not barca. the pressing, the speed of passing and thought is not there.... the reality is he's not seeing it.

I am fairly done with this rodgers experiment. defensively we've been poor all year, offensively we bought sturridge to improve but have not addressed the issue enough. the passing game is fine once it is not two touch but one touch.

 

can't better that for expressing my feelings, so i won't even try. I back Rodgers because there is nowhere left to go. Kenny wasn't my choice as anything but caretaker, but he and Clarke should have had another season...

But here we are. Tobes does have a point that tactically BR is inflexible, and maybe out of his depth: this is evidenced by the fact that, despite some outstanding performances, per se, HE HASN'T CONVERTED ONE OF THOSE GAMES INTO A VICTORY AGAINST A TEAM IN THE TOP HALF OF THE TABLE! That can't continually be written off as a freak or an accident. However, the bloke needs to start swimming soon, because if he goes under there doesn't seem any 'lifeboat' managers like Kenny was to do a short term fix, and FSG are not going to throw Chelsea/City money at the problem.

Wonder what Redknapp will be doing in the summer...

 

The only one I can think of would be Rafa but FSG would be too scared of him after the H&G problems.

 

i'll be honest here. I'm not really feeling like whinging about it much more. There plenty of good football to be seen this year, including watching LFC but I think we'll be seeing some flouncy stadium announcement sin the next week... somehow if we lose to zenit i think fans will be so up in arms FSG will roll the PR.

i just want to ignore it from here to may and watch barca and the CL games from here on in. LFC.... toilet season... reminds me of souness type stuff honestly.

 

I'd give up my season ticket if Rafa came back Seriously.

 

Think he still might hold some part in our future but I can't see them throwing Rodgers off yet, think he will for sure have next year to see if there is a bit better form. I want us to be playing Europe though whether that is by winning Eruopa this year or qualifying in that position.

 

The fact of the matter is that we do not have enough quality throughout the team.
This is very obvious in central defence where we have to bring back carragher to help out. Agger is a class defender on the ball but total **** at defending without it. Not sure why skrtel has been dropped to be honest.
Johnson had an absolute mare as did Enrique, 2 players who have performed well for us.
In midfield we have industry but little class. We Definately need a playmaker who can bring out the best in Suarez and Sturridge who without doubt are our shining lights.
Downing has been better lately but you never get consistent performances from him and he just does not provide enough threat. Same for sterling ,potential but do you ever think he will play that killer ball or killer cross?
Shelvey should just be let go. Simply not good enough and never will be.

Suarez could do with getting his head up now and again and his decision making is often very poor.

How courthino will settle in we will have to see but he looked decent in his short time last night...but then again so did Assaidi .

I don't know who we will sign in the summer but we need real quality not potential else I think BR 's reign will be short lived.

Just on another note,why haven't Chelsea recalled Lukaku ? He looks an absolute beast whenever I see him play and must be a better option than Torres,! Ran Agger ragged.