The difference in our build up play over the last couple of weeks.

Obi Wan · Feb 11, 2013

Tash. said: ↑

Ba was effective, but him being in the team wasn't doing it good. This is the point that you seem to be missing quite a lot. Hypothetical sitaution - If Messi was scoring 80 goals a season, but Barca were sliding down the table because they were less effective as a team by trying to feed Messi, the best thing that could happen for the team would be to get rid of Messi. Again, this is a hypothetical situation, don't take it seriously, but you get my point.

Ba was effective, but the team was suffering because of how we were playing with him. And the whole thing about him shooting because he had no other options is wrong. Sometimes it happened, but a lot of the time there would be players making runs or in better positons and he'd just shoot himself.

I never said Ba was the primary reason for our downfall. I made a list, that was meant to be bigger but I submitted my article too early, and Ba just happened to be one of many. It wasn't in a particular order. As I've said in other comments, Demba Ba himself isn't massively to blame, it was also the way we used him, and also how we were set up to feed him chances.

Without him we are a side that works for each other, and we can score from anywhere. I can't see anyone scoring a huge percentage of our goals, and we look like a much more threatening team.

Yes there are other factors involved, but the situation with Ba had a big effect. I haven't used selective memory in the debate. I believe the way most people look at this whole thing is wrong. Just because you have a striker that's scoring goals, doesn't mean that having him in the team is the best thing.

Would you rather have a team with a striker that scores a lot, and finish 15th, or a team where you have no one that scores a huge amount, and finish 8th?

We don't have an individual that consistently going to score goals anymore, but we have a team that is effective and works together. Everyone feeds each other and works hard. When Ba was here everyone basically just giving it to him, and hoping he'd score.

Last season Ba worked hard on the wing and everyone worked well together and for each other, and we were the best we'd been in ages. Ba was hinting at a move away, the club **** itself and Pardew thought "either I play him in the main strikers role, or he's ****ing off".

Summary - We played to suit certain players, not to get the best out of the team. Pardew was hoping that quality from individuals would work and get us results, and we wouldn't have to play well, but it didn't work. Ba was scoring, but the team wasn't picking up enough results.

Now we don't have the threat of Ba, but we have a better and more efficient team. Ba could have worked in this if his head was in it for the right reasons, and I'm not saying he was entirely selfish, but his main motive was to impressive other clubs and to get a move away. Yes sometimes he shot because there was no other option, but he was greedy quite a lot. A striker has the right to be greedy, but only to an extent. His work rate was effected.
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Gandalf said: ↑

That was an obvious nod towards the genuine fact you'd used selective memory in the debate, not some form of personal slight. Notice I didn't use the words "your mamma...", my typical insult calling card. Me calling you "crazy girlllllllll" previously you can take however you want though
Ba had the best shots/goals ratio in the league for a long time this season, Papiss had one of the worst. It makes sense to me that Ba shoots and Cisse passes it to Ba, because statistically it was more likely we'd score goals that way, and that's how it transpired anyway. The tactics of hoofball didn't play to Ba's strengths, nor our midfield's (they were all tiny), it was just horrible. But it was Pardew's default during the injury crisis.

Those times where Ba had long-shots, do you happen to notice who he had to pass to? Invariably he had no options. Long-shots aren't even a problem, test the keeper and all that. Cabaye, Tiote and Santon have probably taken way more than Ba did, and only Cabaye has scored from it. Getting the midfield up and into attacking positions is more important, giving the lone striker more options. Ba actually played target man and laid it off exceptionally well.

Still, you've called Demba's play your primary reason for the turn around, and it's blatantly not true. I think his transfer fee, however, might be a useful explanation for a turnaround. Look at what we've got for that money... Brilliant purchases who have strengthened the team enormously.
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Tash. said: ↑

Don't make declarative statements about people during debates/discussions, because then it becomes personal and it should never become personal on a forum like this. I don't BLAME Ba himself for everything, I'm just saying his presence in the team wasn't the best thing. Please stop using the term "hoofball". My point is that we played balls direct to feed Ba chances. Our plan was to give it to Ba and hope he scores. It's understandable that you'd do that when you have a top quality striker on form, but Ba should have been one player of an 11 man unit, instead it was a team of 10 men that worked to give the ball to Ba.

When we had Ba we just whacked hopeless balls up the pitch and into the box, and our main goal was to feed Ba. Now we look more like a unit and we link up well together.

Ba was a great player, but he didn't want to stay and it did effect his performances and also, more importantly, our performances, due to the style we were playing. He didn't play like the same player that joined us, he played to look impressive and was extremely greedy. A strikers job is to score goals, yes, but that doesn't give him the right to be greedy, and towards the end of his time here, he was greedy, but we looked passed this because he scored goals, but people didn't look at the bigger picture. This approach to games only worked in certain games, but it hurt us in the rest,.

One striker scoring a **** load of goals doesn't mean your time are doing good, even if it sometimes leads to results. We were at the bottom end of the table, yes it was due to injuries, yes it was due to poor defending, but we had the likes of Ben Arfa and Ba available at times and we still looked unthreatening. We dropped points in games we should have won, and it took moments of brilliance to get us the few results that we got.

Our attack was also the problem, and I blame tactics, and the fact that the club obviously tried to everything to try and convince Ba to stay, but it wasn't enough, and it has played a part in why we slid down the table. Again, I'm not saying Demba Ba was a big reason, I'm saying, more specifically, the situation with Demba played a big part. I'm not saying Demba was a twat and his greed lead to our demise, I'm saying his presence and the clubs desire to keep him and how it effected our tactics all played a part.

There were many reasons, and I'm sorry that I didn't go into more detail in my thread.
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Gandalf said: ↑

As the striker, in a team that's consistently playing long ball, why would you want him chasing back in defence??? You want long balls pumped at Papiss do you? Is that... the key...?

You have severe selective memory when it comes to FACTS Tash... We played a couple of good games in the group stages, but the rest formed very poor games against very poor opposition. Maritimo at home and away was a bloody insult to my eyes!!! Sammy looked like a world-beater in a couple of the games we did well in, so how come you aren't using the same defunct reasoning to champion his premier league selection? Maybe he's... the key...

To me it's startling you've rushed to blame Ba, who as mentioned previously left to join Chelsea who do not play long-ball (even though he apparently wants this and demands it, and Pardew is so weak he'll cave to player demands), when the causes are infinitely more obvious. New players have come in, our severe injury crisis is coming to an end, weaker players with poorer ball skills have been dropped, and our midfield is no longer unproductive. This Ba stuff is mythical bullshit which doesn't stand up to scrutiny, as far as I can see.
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Tash. said: ↑

Ba didn't work hard like he did last season unless he scored. He would just stay up the pitch, and when he got the ball he'd try and score himself almost every time instead of trying to work with others. He'd shoot from outside the box and miss every time, he didn't show the same work ethic he showed last season until he had scored once or twice in a game.

The times I saw him track back where after he got himself on the score sheet. I'm not saying he didn't give a ****, but his main goal every time was to try and get himself on the score sheet and show himself off, and then afterwards came the team work.

We did drop points at times due to **** defending, but we also dropped points due to the fact that we were just putting **** balls into the box or knocking it long. Our attack lacked a sting and it showed against good defences when we could only score one vs QPR, one vs Swansea and none vs West Ham.

Here's a fact - Did anyone watch the Europa games? I know the quality of the sides weren't amazing, but the Europa games we played without Ba were some of our best technical performances. We played with Cisse and two wingers, and some eager youngsters. We played good, passing, technical football and we passed through our opponents working as a team.

No one can deny most of our good performances at the early stages of the season were in Europe, and it wasn't just down to the lack of quality in the opponents side. We had 5 midfielders and one striker (Cisse) and we played very well.
Then we went back to the PL and played direct to Ba again and looked like ****. The only assist Demba Ba got was from a shot he took that De Gea parried to Perch.
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Obi Wan · Feb 11, 2013

^^^^^ I didn't have the will to read all this. I just copied it all as I wanted to make the longest post ever.

TheJudeanPeoplesFront · Feb 11, 2013

Obi Wan said: ↑

^^^^^ I didn't have the will to read all this. I just copied it all as I wanted to make the longest post ever.
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Come on Obi, mine weren't even that long

Obi Wan · Feb 11, 2013

Gandalf said: ↑

Come on Obi, mine weren't even that long
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strange, I had to delete most of yours as there were too many characters. Your combined 'chat' with Tash was over 20,000. I had to 'trim' it down to 10,000 to make it allowable.

Albert's Chip Shop · Feb 11, 2013

Size isnt everything

Obi Wan · Feb 11, 2013

Albert's Chip Shop said: ↑

Size isnt everything
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Oh, you've had that line as well ACS? Don't believe them!

TheJudeanPeoplesFront · Feb 11, 2013

Obi Wan said: ↑

strange, I had to delete most of yours as there were too many characters. Your combined 'chat' with Tash was over 20,000. I had to 'trim' it down to 10,000 to make it allowable.
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Why did you delete mine and not his?

How long has this affair being going on for?

Maximin Effort · Feb 12, 2013

So in Summary

Tash: It's Ba's Fault
Gandalf: It's not
T: It is
G: It's not, Willo hoofball
T: It is, stop saying hoofball
G: It's not, I like the new players
T: I like them too, still Ba's fault
G: Is not
ACP: Pardew is going MENTAL!
Obi: What's going on?
ACS: Cock!

Obi Wan · Feb 12, 2013

Sissokay by me said: ↑

So in Summary

Tash: It's Ba's Fault
Gandalf: It's not
T: It is
G: It's not, Willo hoofball
T: It is, stop saying hoofball
G: It's not, I like the new players
T: I like them too, still Ba's fault
G: Is not
ACP: Pardew is going MENTAL!
Obi: What's going on?
ACS: Cock!
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Any chance you can summarise Mrs Obi's 'conversations' with me like that? Would make my life so much easier if I actually understood what I'm being nagged about!

Tel (they/them) · Feb 13, 2013

Just been having a chat to my mate and he has informed me that your owner is in talks with an Arab/Middle Eastern buyer for your club. I told him that he tells me this about 5 times a year and nothing ever happens but he pointed me in the direction of his source...

Some of you might have heard of him or follow him on twitter, he goes by the name of indykaila

I'm as sceptical as they come with regards to ITK's on Twitter, I mean...why would you ever do that, just keep the info to yourself and have a few betting accounts, surely. Anyway after a scroll through about 2/3 months of his stuff, he gets a lot of stuff spot on. He seems to be able to drop a headline a day or two max before it goes into open source.

This might not happen, and once you read the twitter feed you'll know as much as I do, if it doesn't happen then I guess the guy can say they chose not to buy and it was all kept secret, which is plausible but given the guy's decent track record over the past it might just have legs this one.

Apologies if you already knew, and apologies for not making a thread...I couldn't be bothered.

Darth Plagueis · Feb 13, 2013

Interesting...

The difference in our build up play over the last couple of weeks.

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The difference in our build up play over the last couple of weeks.

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