Is the Premier League getting stronger or weaker?

Definately weaker.

Thats is you're referring to quality. It peaked about 3-4 years ago.

Revenue is no doubt increasing though.

 

Results between teams don't prove or disprove your theory, DL. If the standard of the league improves generally across the board, then there is no reason why it should have a bearing on results overall or the gap between the sides.

What we can plainly see is that even the smaller clubs have bigger squads and better quality players (most are internationals) drawn from a wider base (the majority are now from overseas). They are undoubtedly fitter, better coached and better prepared. As a result, I believe teams are more competitive, even if results don't always bear that out.

You cite the Arsenal v Newcastle game as evidence of how the PL is weaker. If you watched that game, it tended to prove the contrary. The passing and movement of both teams and their ability to create and take goalscoring chances is light years ahead of what we saw 10-15 years. Leicester were regular top ten finishers relying on the silky skills of Savage and Izzet. Teams need more than discipline and effort to make any impact now. Look at the ability Swansea and Wigan, for example, show on a regular basis. There has been a definite improvement.

 

Overall you'd have to say stronger

There's the usual boring two horse race between Man U and A N Other but the rest of the table is no longer predictable (and the media gnash their teeth at this)

 

About five years ago the Sky 4 were way ahead of everyone else. And they all (maybe not Chelsea) had at least one absolute world-beater in their teams. A player like Ronaldo, Henry, Gerrard could single-handedly take a team apart. At Chelsea maaaybe you could say Lampard or Drogba?

Now there's a top two (Man Utd, Man City) and the other three or four teams (Arsenal, Chelsea, us and one of Everton/Newcastle) are vying for the other spots. At least until Chelsea get their act together again.

And the top six now do not have the sort of titans that that the top four had a few years ago. Not even the top two, really. RVP at Utd? Maybe. But he's no Ronaldo at his peak for Utd. Rooney's not as good as the earlier players mentioned. For Man City: Aguero? Silva? Tevez? Again - all great players but none of them have grabbed the league by the scruff of the neck in quite the way that Ronaldo, Henry, Gerrard did. Yet, I suppose.

But then maybe the "weaker" teams are just stronger now. Teleport Yaya Toure into the 2004/2005 league and maybe he's eat up midfields for Liverpool in the way Gerrard used to.

I think there is no longer a top four and then the rest. Part of this is due to sides like Arsenal, Liverpool and chelsea simply not being as good any more. Partly it's cos Spurs have progressed so much, as have Everton and maybe Newcastle (?). And every year there's one or two Swanseas or Blackpools or WBAs.

One thing in favour of the idea that, compared to the rest of Europe at least, the EPL is stronger is that the team that last year deservedly finished fifth are current European champions. Now I know they rode their luck a lot and frankly weren't terribly deserving winners but still I don't think that any of the fifth-placed teams from five/ten years ago would have had a greater chance of winning it.

 

Err excuse me DL, but isn't it you singling out individual results!?!? banging on that the 7-3 yesterday somehow supports your flimsy case! It is me that is trying to draw your attention to the league 'as a whole', that fact stated in many of my replies. Your statement about last seasons thrashings being 'one-offs' is nothing more than an unsubstantiated throw-away comment....all thrashings are one-offs in a season, so far there have been more last season than this. The fact the points are spread more around the league, meaning more sides are capable of a win also supports my case, not yours. And finally a side or two has been 'cast adrift' as you put it by Xmas for as long as I can remember, so again, a rather weak point to make a case with.

 

I mean quality. I would not deny it is stronger in terms of competitiveness but the quality overall is poor

 

The gap between 1st and 3rd in La Liga is 16 points. They must be weaker, too.
It's 11 points in Serie A and 12 in the Bundesliga. Weaker.
It's only 6 in the SPL, though. They must be stronger.
Er, I'm struggling to follow this line of thought.

6th.

 

The quality of football in Bundesliga and La Liga has definitely improved, by enlarge down to the fact those countries are producing top talent in contrast the pool of top English talent is smaller than in previous years.

 

One of the teams you have referred to is Newcastle. They must be weaker because instead of relying on English players as they once did, they've resorted to buying cheap foreign imports like Krul, Coloccini, Gutierrez, Cabaye, Tiote, Ben Arfa, Cisse and Ba. All of these players wouldn't get a second look from a mid table La Liga or Bundesliga team, would they?

 

La Liga's talent is largely concentrated in 2 teams in that division.
The last Spanish squad had 8 Barca players, 3 from Real and 1 each from Sevilla, Betis, Valencia, Atletico, Arsenal, Bayern and Chelsea.
The likes of Xavi, Alonso, Pique, Puyol and Arbeloa weren't in it either, which would skew things even further towards their top 2.

 

When there's an exceptional team in the home league, their players often make up the majority of their national team - Ajax made up a lot of the Dutch team in the mid-70s, Bayern have frequently made up a chunk of the (West) German team, Milan and Juventus have been well-represented in the Italian team, Dinamo Kiev/Kyiv made up a chunk of the Soviet and Ukrainian teams at various times, and so on.

This has never really been the case in England, and a lot can be put down to imports. Not the usual anti-foreigner bashing you get on Talksport, but from our neighbours - for example, our double-winning squad had one from Northern Ireland (Blanchflower) one from Wales (Jones) and three from Scotland (Mackay, White, Brown), whilst Man Utd's European Cup-winning squad had two Irish (Brennan, Dunne) one Scot (Crerand) and one Northern Irish (Best), whilst Liverpool had various Scots (Hansen, Dalglish, Souness, Nicol) or Irish (Lawrenson, Whelan, Robinson) or Welsh (Rush) when they were winning European Cups in the early 80s.

 

Oh yeah. God my memory's appalling.

Still - guess my point is even stronger now...

 

Gary Neville on MNF pretty much sided with our view that the league is in fact weaker with stats to prove it.

So Notso

 

There are no stats that can prove that!

 

They can't prove it but they can suggest it.

Since 08/09 there has been a significant rise in the number of goals English clubs are conceding in Europe and the average number of goals being conceded in the PL is at an all time high. Factor in the few number of draws we are seeing and the number of one sided games and it suggests the weak is getting weaker.

Teams scoring 4+ is no longer a rarity it's the norm. Tells you all you need to know, games are getting less competitive hence the quality of the league is getting weaker.

 

Teams conceding more goals doesn't necessarily mean that the league's getting weaker. It could mean that defences are getting worse or that attacks are getting better or even both.
Alternatively it could be a change in the style of play which emphasises attacking play.

 

2 welsh i think,Tony Marchi was welsh was'nt he?

 

Horseshit, this merely coincides with the demise of the Sky4, mainly Pool and the Goons, they have conceded more goals as their standards have dropped for the reasons everyone knows. Couple that with the CL newcomers, ourselves and City who have conceded more than usual being new to the comp.

Teams scoring 4 is as much to do with more top quality forwards in our league than ever, not just concentrated into half a dozen teams either. The football used itself is developed each year to move all over place. There are many more reasons for an increase in goals, but I can't be bothered, you really cannot see anything past your argument can you.

You can keep trying if you like, but I can't say its going to hold my interest for much longer.

 

I do think the transition in style of play can be partly attributed to it but also the deterioration in the quality of player.

I remember when Spurs had Berbatov, Defoe, Keane and Bent. Sunderland also had Jones, Bent and in the past Phillips and Quinn. Norwich had Dean Ashton. Arsenal had Henry, Bergkamp, Pires.

My point is that from top to bottom we are seeing more goals scored by what I believe are a lower quality of player. As you say though there are different reasons and different opinions but my personal opinion is that it is testament to the league getting weaker. As a nation we have never really produced top talent given the size of the population we have and resources at our disposal but the one thing we had from (2001-2010) when the PL was at its peak was that England was the 1st place talented foreign players wanted to apply their trade. That time has come and we are now seeing clubs try and replace top talent with mediocre players.

 

Relax Notso we don't have to agree. I welcome your views and am glad to look at from your viewpoint. Unlike some I don't completely dismiss the idea that the league could be getting stronger, if it is competitive (like all of the positions are today as opposed to the days of the Sky 4) then there is am argument that the league could be getting stronger but I don't see it that way I just mean the quality of football and competitiveness of the games. We are seeing teams each week with no realistic chance of winning, the Spanish and German leagues are far more open (unless Bayern, Barca or Real respectively are at home).

We have 6/7 quality sides, 2/3 being half decent and the rest being pretty much relegation fodder. In Germany/Spain (Germany in particular) you will have 10-12 quality sides that could all beat each other on their day and play a high level of football, that to me is a strong league irrespective of how dominant Barca/Real/Bayern/Dortmund are.