Bigi and Marveaux

You're older and have an attention span

 

Sorry what was that again? Is this the Rep Brothel?

 

As serious as piles I'm afraid. Jonas is what he is. He certainly hasn't had some absolutely noticeable drop-off, he's running as far as ever, if not as quick. I think some people are being fooled by the fact Santon bypasses him. I would go into this further, but my broadband is making this a nightmare at present. I already commented on a Jonas related thread everything I have to say about him anyway. ALso, like i say, Marv has been given very few opportuniities, so I think it's a bit pathetic to judge him. You haven't done the same of our youngsters when you comment of them.

I can throw back the short sighted remark too. Marveaux joined in June 2011 and the sum total of your love for him is based on a few pre season games, and a couple of decent games of late (lets not forget his recent **** up against Man U which cost us). Nobody doubts his skills, or ability to create. Its his fitness and desire that has been quite rightly in question. He has managed 28 appearances since his arrival, and looked distinctly average overall.

How is that short-sighted then??? I've seen him play and realised he has potential, that defo doesn't seem short-sighted... I also find it weak to question fitness or desire, two things you really have no clue about. Short-sighted is seeing him play a couple of times and declaring he's ****.

Bigi was no longer effective in that or the Man U game, he was treading water badly. We didn't have the options to bring on the necessary types, given Bigi was our replacement choice and the other was playing centre half. He took off players for a mixture of reasons, not just the simplistic view of one of two situations. That is real management. Fitness levels pre match, games ahead, risk of injury, drop in performance level during the game, the list is a long one. I am not suggesting anywhere that he was sacrificing a game. You've misread that completely. I'm suggesting as a responsible manager he does have to consider the next game, particularly in our winter periods.

You actually did suggest that. I think I highlighted it in bold previously where you said that, howeveR I'm unable to scroll up at the moment

"I don't need knowledge to hold a debate" is essentially what you're saying there. I have worked out for a very very long period of my life, to the point where I have pains in joints and shoulders already , I know about injuries and fitness thanks

If you don't think Bigi can play 90 minutes, I'd check the stats.

 

So without a degree you don't have knowledge? I am big believer in education but it is not the only source of knowledge in the world. Knowledge can come from many sources and mine on this subject come from what I have experienced, speaking and listening with professionals, and also of course reading up on these things. If you are physically exhausted you are at a greater risk of injury and not as effective performance wise. Fatigued muscles increases injury risk. The number of times I or a teammate pulled something deep into extra time of a cup game as opposed to early doors when fresh would lopsided as you get. These guys at PL level have a number of minutes they consider is relevant to someones physical condition pre match never mind once underway. Of course you may just feel Bigi didn't look tired.

Jonas HAS dropped off performance wise this season to me. Virtually everyone has noticed it and there has been countless threads on here about it. Again we'll just have to disagree there because I see a massive difference in his levels. He has been one of our poorest players this season. Last year he was one of our best, that's a pretty big nose dive in my eyes. Very apt using nose and dive to comment on Jonas.....................

The comment about Marveaux is short sighted because you are caning the manager on his use of him despite him failing to show much bar a few pre season games and some recent form despite having been here for a year and a half, being injured for much of it. Blind faith is not really the way for a manager to go for me.

You'll have to re-check because I have simply said Pards had to consider the Everton game. That is just common sense as a manager in a busy period. Of course he has to factor in the likelihood of us getting something out of the Arsenal game but it is not the main factor though I'm sure he was well aware how ragged we got 70mins in. I personally thought the game was up at 70-75mins ish for us but I can't comment on what Pardew thought himself. I said prior to the game and again at half time this would happen. Its not some spooky psychic moment, it was very obvious based on them being fresh, our energy levels being extremely low. In the PL that will always tell because of the physicality of our game. It'll tell in any football game and does regularly at major summer tournaments when english based players turn up looking half the players.

I'm 100% sure Bigi can play 90mins. That is irrelevant when considering if should when he is exhausted which he looked to me.

 

??? Not sure where I said a degree is the only knowledge, you definitely said you don't need any medical knowledge beyond your own experience... I've only ever had one injury caused by exhaustion (collapse) in the entirety of my sports career, but many due to either poor warm-down or sitting out before doing more reps (as Bigi would have to do if you take him off with 8 mins left)... Why isn't that as valid?

Anyway, you're getting far off the beaten track.

What we know about your point:
Bigi and Marv didn't get an injury... That's all you know for sure. You don't know Bigi was exhausted beyond your own assumption, and you don't even know he's going to get game-time vs Everton. You also don't know how more likely he was to get an injury. Whatever infinitesimal percentage rise there will be would no doubt still be heavily biased in my favour that he wouldn't get an injury. What we also know is that there are far more injury-susceptible players who are first team choice who weren't taken off, so much for protecting players. Do you know how far Bigi would have had to completed to be as effective as at any other point during the match for those last 10 mins? 0.3 miles. They regularly do this distance in warm down. Scientifically speaking, younger muscles have greater endurance than older ones, and although recent studies have shown the recovery rates are similar, younger people tend to repair tissue faster.

What we know about my point:
We capitulated after they were taken off. We don't know if this would have happened with them on or not, but I'd sure as hell take that probability over any chance of them getting injured. We also know Marv has completed 120 mins in one night before against S****horpe, while Bigi has completed many 90 mins match in his short career thus far. In short, there's no scope for being as dismissive as you are when you look at it objectively, because there are way more niggles with your point than with mine...

P.s
Jonas has been running over 5 miles per game, as per any other season. That's what Jonas brings to the table and that's what he's always brought. The only person who has run further in any games are Cheick Tiote, as per last season. The only reason people are noticing he's not brilliant are those who are looking for a scapegoat and like Sauron's eye are drawn to one or two mistakes Jonas has always made. He had some **** games last season too, when he wasn't carrying a knock as well I might add...
A lot of the threads people have written have described his "legs going". Quite simply it's untrue. And he definitely wasn't one of our better players last season in any statistic known to man, unless you count work-ethic, in which case Tiote still beats him. In almost every game this season, we've outrun our opponents, even Spurs (by a mile) who you'd think would do the most work with Bale etc. It's a tactical thing to employ Jonas.

Also, if you're going to count 2 injuries as injury prone, our whole squad is injury prone

And I'm rightly caning the manager according to my opinion (based on what we know) because he's taken him off and we've capitulated.

 

You are taking things way out of context here. You claimed I believed I didn't need knowledge to have a debate. Keeping it simple I have simply pointed out I believe have sound knowledge and don't need a degree to understand how fatigued muscles affect the risk of injury and performance in football matches. I have first hand experience through playing and managing.

Jonas - so you believe Jonas has previously only brought running to the team? We just disagree here. As noted previously the bloke last season was an excellent defensive wide man with a great touch. One misunderstanding though is that you are associating "legs going" with the miles you run. I can't speak for others but this is not my meaning. I doubt he has covered the same yardage at last year at the same rate but I'm talking about him being slower, struggling with his touch (ball caught under his feet regularly), and generally looking to struggle with the pace of games. And the classic in Allardyce argument of "any statistic known to man" is where we fundamentally judge footballers differently in what they bring to a side. Statistics are useful, but your eyes are far more useful in assessing what someone is bringing to as team in my opinion. Jonas is the perfect example of why stats are misleading, he had a great season for the team last term and was key component to team functioning well.

Injury prone, who are we talking about, Marveaux? In 6 years of professional football he has managed a paltry number of games, mainly due to injury. He has had regular problems with his groin and a number of operations. I think based on output in number of games given his natural ability, and the number of injuries (many of the recurrence of similar problems), injury prone is not an unfair description.

As for the debate in general, I think the point is you felt Marveaux and Bigi (more so Bigi) were not overly tired, I felt Bigi and Marv to a lesser degree were based on what I saw. Your assumption that he was not tired holds no more water than mine unfortunately, we just disagree. Its no more based in fact how ever you try to dress it up. You are getting into statistical analysis yet you have no statistics to base it on, the club do and felt it necessary to take him off. For many years managers have taken tired looking players off without such detailed data, and the human eye is still a valid tool in assessing how tired someone is. Big was tired in my opinion and I understand any decision to remove him when that is the case. Its as simple as that we just disagree. I imagine Bigi ran as far as any in that match and the previous one to be honest (I don't have stats), so I'd fully expect him to suffer more.

I still disagree and believe you are wrong to cane the manager for the personnel he took off. His substitutions have been poor generally this season but I don't have a problem with those except Bigi should have come out earlier.