Demba Ba, the main reason we're not playing as a team?

TAKE THE ARTICLE AS A WHOLE AND UNDERSTAND THE TITLE AND POINT OF THE ARTICLE BEFORE COMMENTING.

We all saw it last year, we had a great menatlity and team ethic. I think I recall at lot of the players and Pardew quoting "winning and losing together" and have recently seen a picture of a poster in the training ground that reads "It's not about blame, we're all accoutable". This season though is different and forgetting the results we've had so far, it is clear that our attitude and more so Demba Ba's has changed, especially in the final third.

Demba Ba, of course, has 11 goals in the league this season and Cisse only has 2 but lately, I've seen a lot of comments stating that we'd be rubbish without Demba Ba, this is a comment I massively disagree with. I honestly think we'd be better off without him! He is very greedy and rarely passes, even when others are in far better positions. Demba Ba has had 70 shots in the league this season, many from distance. Comparing that to Cisse who has had 30, I'm not defending Cisse's finishing because, yes, it's been poor but the mentality of each player can be seen from just that stat alone. Moving on...

...Cisse has created the 2nd most open play chances for NUFC in the league (16) just 1 less than Ben Arfa, Ba (10). I've also seen comments that Ba works harder than Cisse and that Cisse "does nowt" but in fact Cisse this season has made 17 tackles and 14 interceptions, Ba has made 4 tackles and 6 interceptions. I will also touch on the subject of Cisse being offside "all the time", I agree it's getting annoying but I'm not annoyed for the same reasons as most. Cisse has been offside 18 times this season compared to Demba Ba's 8 but when looking at the average player positions it's clear why. Cisse plays more often than not higher than Ba regardless of formation, to me the ball isn't being played early enough. Ba has attempted just 2 through-balls this season, that, coming from a player who is seen as one of those strikers who drops deep to pick up the ball, he's too selfish!

In summary, for the player playing deepest, Ba doesn't tackle, intercept, create and pass as much as Cisse but he does shoot more and therefore score more. People can only point to Ba's goals when defending him, but it’s to the detriment of the team. He doesn’t pass enough when in good positions and seems to be an individual in what was a good, hard working, winning team. Ba really does appear to be trying to stand out and engineer himself a move in January, reportedly refusing a new contract on £80k/pw and holding out for £90k/pw and today, openly talking about his future to Canal+.

If Ba's release clause is activated in January, I'll be quietly pleased that we can push on and concentrate on what we do best and play as a team.

What does everyone else think?

 

I actually agree with this. Unless Ba comes out and commits he is a hindrance to the team in a lot of ways.

 

Not really. Ba is our in form striker who's scoring the goals, and he needs to be greedy. Cisse Is working harder, like Ba did last season, while Cisse was shooting with great selfishness, but we turned a blind eye to it because he scored goals.

Ba is not just scoring, he also tracks back a lot and works hard. Yes he's greedy, but he has the right to be so, and I totally reject the notion that we'd be a better team without Ba.

 

We need goals, and Ba is scoring them.

In recent games we've been playing well, but just not getting the luck.

Cisse had a wonderful chance at 2-1 again Man City and spurned it over, when he should've scored.

For £7.5m Ba is a steal for any team, and would that £7.5m be given to Pardew to invest in our already paper-thin squad?

We need to keep Ba, drop Gutierrez, hope Cabaye and Ben Arfa return soon, Tiote becomes the beast of last season and most importantly get some luck.

This month is going to be a very long month indeed, but see what happens in January and how much £'s are available to Pards.

 

I think the uncertainty around his future is a massive issue at the moment, and like the summer, it'll only be when he stays or goes in January we can forget about it and move on with or without him.

Having said that, his performances have been massive for us.

I don't buy this "he's too selfish" rubbish. Look at the game vs mackems, he did nothing but chase the ball and hold it up all game, with next to no support and completely selflessly.

Likewise against City this weekend, he had a brilliant game, he won almost everything in the air, chased every 50:50, dropped deep to seek out the ball. Yes, he shoots sometimes when he should pass, but that is what great strikers do. That's why he has 11 goals this season. It's what Shearer, Cole and all other excellent natural centre forwards do.

I think we'll be a worse team without him, however, I think he should go if he doesn't want to commit to us as we need that to push forward.

 

Ba's commitment has never been an issue. He doesn't love us beyond the lure of riches, but neithere does any other player. He has never done anything but express his loyalty to the team, and he's demonstrated it on the pitch.

Ba was entirely unselfish the whole second half of last season. He is being greedy now because he is the one who can find the back of the net. Even if he were a greedy, lazy strikeer who did nothing but score 20+ a year, he's paid his freight. As it is he also tracks back, acts as a hold up man and wins flick ons.

So no, disagree in virtually all respects with the OP

 

Looks like Ba is a hard worker when tracking back, considering he's deeper striker and you seem to have missed my point entirely. My point is, with Cisse playing centrally and Ba playing out of the way or not at all we play better. Cisse is a lot less selfish than Ba. We will play better as a team without the selfishness of Ba, just wait and see.

 

As far as I'm concerned, given that Ba is a centre forward (not a defensive player), I'm not going to let stats on tackles and interceptions get in the way of what I can see with my own eyes without stats - i.e. he's a fantastic centre forward.

 

All you have is that he scores goals like I mentioned in my OP. Looking at the bigger picture, we would be a better team without him because we would play as a team. He's very selfish, I know strikers need to have a element of selfishness but Ba is too selfish and it's detriment to the team as a whole.

 

Wait a second... So are we then supposed to take it that Ba should be passing to(/creating chances for) players who aren't scoring instead of creating chances for the one player who is (ie himself)?

That seems a bit counter-productive to me .

 

It's a similar arguement we all now agree upon wih Kevin Nolan. Scored goals but was detriment to the productivity of the team overall. At the moment Ba is Nolan.

 

You're stats are that Ba has created 10 chances for others, Cisse has created 16. Ba has scored 11 (our top scorer by miles), Cisse has scored 2, therefore I (statistically) know which one I want the chances going to...

 

Like I said in the OP, I'm not defending Cisse's finishing of late but the point of the article is that we play our best stuff as a team and Ba isn't being part of that at the moment.

Of course, Ba individual stats are great but they're no good for the team as a whole. We're still losing games!

 

I think we're good. The team just hasn't functioned well as a whole up until the last 4 games. You have these spells but rather than singling out players I prefer we look forward. I will say I think Ba's reluctance to play left played its part in our disjointed play.

Everyone knows my feeling on stats, the answer is always with your eyes, not some statistical analysis. Ba and Cisse are working hard, improving their link play all the time. They are not getting great quality to work with, probably as a result of creative players not getting on the same pitch.

We need to cut out the individual errors more than anything (I'm looking at you Colo). This takes the wind out of everyone.

 

Exactly one of my points (highlighted). How selfish is refusing to be part of a winning team for personal gain! I agree there are other areas that need addressing but Ba's selfishness so fa rthis season has been a major flaw in our creativity as a whole.

My eyes see Ba shooting from range when there's others in better positions, so not just stats based.

 

In terms of what? Aesthetic pleasure for the neutral? I don't think the stats back up any argument you have here. If we were playing worse than last season purely because of Ba, I very much doubt Pardew would risk his job by playing to lose and keeping 1 player happy. If that's your actual argument, Pardew should be shouldering all of the blame because logically he'd be the one responsible for them "not playing as a team".
The simple fact is, considering how many times the others have scored, we clearly don't score as many goals when Ba is passing to others instead of shooting, so it's surely better when he's not creating for others?

He's not Darren Bent, he's been used as a target man all season, and I'm positive if you look up the distance covered stats, they'd convince you that this argument is flawed.

 

I agree with article 100%, he becoming more of a distraction than an asset. Holding the club, who took a gamble on him when other clubs wouldn't, to ransom over a new contract is ludicrous! I honestly hope we get rid in Jan and buy a younger European version. Even if it costs a couple of mil more. He is obviously causing distraction at the club and bringing morale down. Even if we didn't buy another striker and built in other areas it would become an improvement. Somebody as already said yeah he has scored 11 goals this season but if we can't stop leaking them at the other end then what's the point?

 

Here is analysis of our season up til the Citeh game:

http://www.eplindex.com/23427/set-plays-corners-long-balls-newcastle-premier-league.html

It reads(Removing fancy diagrams etc);
A sullen first half or so of the season doesn’t look to be getting any brighter for Newcastle United – the 2-1 defeat to Fulham continuing Alan Pardew’s record of never coming from behind in a league game as Newcastle United manager, leaving the Toon with just 17 points after 16 games and 2 points above the relegation zone.
Every excuse going has been used for the Magpie’s poor showings thus far – tiredness, injury, recruitment, tactics, effort. However, in Newcastle’s last 3 Premier League games, there has been a major improvement in their performance. Against Stoke, Newcastle were very unlucky to lose the game, conceding the goals they did so late in the game, whereas Wigan came to St James’ Park and got the spanking their performance deserved. Newcastle also bossed Fulham statistically, but failed to get that elusive goal(s) to draw or win on that occasion.
Much has been said this season, in the tactical notion, about their ability from dead ball situations. Newcastle remain the only Premier League side this season to score via a set piece. Add to that, the continued discussion on the ‘long ball’ style play that they have took on this season (which Alan Pardew denied this week) and there is a team here that clearly is not playing the game as effectively as last season.
In terms of those values, NUFC scored 8 set piece goals in the 2011/12 Premier League season. They delivered 171 corners, 142 of which went into the box, and 36 (25%) of which were accurate. They created 39 chances from their set plays, but just one dead ball assist – a Demba Ba header away to Wolves, the last goal scored by NUFC from a corner!
Regarding their long passing, 2130 (14.5%) were completed in total of their overall 14,638 passes as a team and 1063 (50%) of those long balls were accurate. That accounts for 56 long balls per game which was the 8th highest in the division.
A look at similar numbers, and in comparison to the other Premier League sides, was in order to find out exactly what is going on with Newcastle United and their ability this season.

As aforementioned, Newcastle United are the only side yet to score a goal in the league from a set play. Only Swansea (2) come anyway near and Manchester United lead the pack with a colossal 11 goals! 76 corners have been delivered by Newcastle, 63 into the box, and 37% accurate, an increase on last season. They’ve created 22 chances from set plays but, obviously, are yet to register a dead-ball assist or goal.
Referring back to corners, NUFC aren’t as one-dimensional as some may have thought, with just 83% of corners this season going straight into the box – the other 17% used more creatively or quicker. That in comparison to West Brom, who have ‘peeled’ 96% of their corners directly into the box.
Newcastle’s accuracy also isn’t as bad as first assumed – at 37%, just 4 sides win the first ball more often than Newcastle, a really startling statistic considering they have yet to score. Because of that, the chances created by the Magpies from overall set plays is also very average when compared to other league sides this season. 11 teams have failed to create as many chances from dead balls as Newcastle (22), so one must question the ability of the player receiving these set plays and their inability to put the ball in the back of the net or the decisions they are making.
One must also question the ability of our free kick takers. Man Utd have notched 11 goals via set plays, but just 5 have been assisted. That means they have scored from 6 direct free kicks, so too have City and Sunderland have managed 6! Newcastle have had 6 shots direct from free kicks this season, not one rippling the net.

Regarding long balls, 1052 (more than any other side) have been completed with 600 (57%) on target. Those 1052 long passes account for just 17% of their overall passes in the league, a slight increase (from 14.5%) from last season. That also means that Newcastle produce 65.75 long balls on average per game this season, obviously the highest in the top flight, but also an increase of nearly 10 per game on the previous campaign.
Looking at the accuracy of those longer passes, 7 teams have a lower target percentage, meaning again, it’s not necessarily the quality of the delivery; it’s what is being done with the ball after receiving. Man Utd lead the way yet again with a quite immense 72% of long balls accurate (just 8% short of NUFC’s overall passing accuracy this season in the league).
Alan Pardew has made his feelings clear on Newcastle’s ability from set plays and their intent regarding long passing. Last season he admitted that Newcastle were poor in attacking and defending dead balls and vowed to do something about it. Which of Amalfitano, Bigirimana and Anita was brought in to combat this?
Man Utd’s 11 goals from set plays is just over a quarter of their overall Premier League tally this season (40), but would actually account for over half of Newcastle’s 18. The black and whites really are ‘missing a trick’ in this area and must consolidate and improve to provide important goals.
He also stated this week that the ‘long ball statistics are misleading’. Well, Alan, they aren’t. In fact, when objective data such as a ‘number of long balls played’ is telling you that you play the highest amount, there isn’t anything to be misinterpreted. Having said that, while Newcastle do play the most long balls, it isn’t the quality of the ball, but what happens thereafter.
Ba and Cisse are not target men and as a team, they do not possess the legs to get in behind or support the front players quick enough when the ball is played directly up there.

So there we have it. Why haven't we been as effective as last season? Because we haven't been playing to the strengths of the players and haven't been making the most of our chances (players like Cisse who have spurned them, the very ones Ba should be passing to more?!?!), not because of Demba Ba at all, who has been taking most of the chances he's had. In fact I think you're shooting the hero of the tale MrToontastic! He's saving us!

 

The stats back up that Ba is too selfish and although his goals have, to the outsider or uninformed, been the saviour of NUFC this season, his individual brilliance hasn't done much good for the team and that the team works better as a team. Ba is not a team player on or off the field and we could be playing better if not for Ba.

 

Has he refused to play left wing? Not sure there's much evidence of that. Pardew hasn't played him there recently but can't recall any complaints from Ba leading to this, it was all just people hypothesising.

Yes the team is losing games, but that's been due to poor performances from other team members, tiote, jonas, cabaye (now injured), simpson, williamson, Colo and Krul have all had poor seasons - I don't see how Ba doing more defensive work will change that? - and would just lead to fewer goals scored.