I don't think we'll hear much more from that twat Herbert, on this one. It seems like the wheels have come off his bandwagon. I'm sure he'll be back as soon as the next one comes along, though.
Since his other big case, the one where Mikel John Obi Mikel Obi John made **** up about a referee, has come crashing down around his ears he doesn't exactly have a platform to stand on...
To be fair to MJOMOJ, he didn't claim to have heard anything. Ramirez did and his English isn't very good, understandably. The whole thing should've been done a lot differently.
More than likely - he'll probably say that he quite obviously thought it so that's as bad as saying it.......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20456027 AVB calls for Lazio fans to be charged with anti-semitic chanting. I think this highlights the potential problems with this issue. Apparently Lazio fans were chanting 'Juden Tottenham'. A literal translation of 'Jewish Tottenham', which could be argued is less inflamatory than chanting 'Yiddo', which Spurs fans chant themselves. If Spurs fans are happy calling themselves a Jewish club, then another team calling them a Jewish club, without using a derogatory word, is unlikely to be grounds for a successful complaint.
You are like a dog with a bone on this! With these things it comes down to intent. If you'd like to argue that Lazio were just being descriptive, then you'd have a point.
So because Lazio fans are making anti-semitic chants we should stop supporting our club in the way we have for years? I'm sorry but I don't believe in punishing the abused club because we're targeted by ignorant anti-semites.
This is exactly the problem debated some weeks ago and PISKIE is right. Intent is vague, and you cannot prove the state of mind of thousands of people. You can claim they were being antagonistic, but football supporters of opposing teams are usually antagnostic since they are directly competing against each other. What you need to prove is that they were being racially antagnostic. And you cannot do that because THFC fans themselves have introduced "yid" and the idea of Jewish identity into the langugage of football themselves, as PISKIE also explains. You can't chant "up with the yids" and then start claiming you have been deeply offended if the opposing stand responds with "down with the yids", even if also claim that you are nice and innocent when you use the word but those other supporters are just a big bunch of meanies.
However when you link it to a mass attack on Spurs fans with clubs and knives which in the Italian press has been linked to anti-jewish motivation then it is a little different.
The attack was done by Roma fans (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20462617) not Lazio so proving a link is not so easy. It would be much easier if THFC did not sing about themselves being the "yid army" because then the context would be the stabbings with suspected anti-Semitic motivations. The "yid" chants make the context unprovable - the Lazio fans can easily and irrefutably claim they sung "Juden" because the THFC fans had done the same just minutes ago and not because days earlier Roma fans attacked some THFC fans. I do hope both Roma and Lazio get some strong punishments though, even without the "yid" issue they have done enough to deserve it.
Look I'm sorry but that is just bollocks. First of all it may be Roma fans or a mix of the two it depends on which report you read. Second it matters not a jot what Spurs fan sing or don't sing if they are attacked by armed thugs with weapons. Third it was not 'days' ago it was the previous day. Fourth the supposed anti Jewish attack on Spurs fans happened before the game so IF Spurs fans chanted Yid Army or not in the stadium is irrelevant. It's the same tired argument we had from PISKIE and it doesn't work.
Let's be pefectly honest here - Lazio fans singing any songs about Jews are spectacularly unlikely to mean it as a term of endearment or a little bit of jest. The history of that club is testament to that - a lot of people on here are fond if using google to debase the arguments of spurs fans on this subject so they shouldn't find it hard to dig out some rather telling articles on the kind of behaviour in which some lazio fans like to indulge.
That's simply not true though. Firstly you're suggesting that we brough Jewish identity into it which isn't actually true. Secondly so what if we did? By respecting our Jewish heritage and signing about it in no way means we've brough it on ourselves. If a woman wearing a head scard received anti-Muslim, racist abuse did she bring it on herself? No and anyone that thinks she did is a loon. Whether we cheered on the Yid Army earlier or not we'd still get these kinds of chants. Stopping it doesn't prevent or deter anti-semitism as we've always been seen as a club with Jewish roots. From the sounds of what's being reported, technically what's has been chanted by the Lazio fans isn't anti-semitic, if you don't take into account intent and technically what we sing is anti-semitic, if you don't take into account intent. If you do look at the intent the situations are reversed but whatever way you look at it whether intent is important or not you can't argue that Spurs fans brought this on by what they sang. If intent counted for anything then they were being anti-semitic whilst we were supporting our club, if intent didn't matters then we haven't provoked anything because their chanting wasn't anti-semitic.
That's not what they're saying. They suspect it was an act by an anti-semitic group, which unsurprisingly has supporters of the two local football clubs in it.
No doubt everyone just wants Herbert to go away and to stop rocking other peoples boats. He floated the boat (that didn't belong to him) and it sunk. Let's not throw him a life belt.
I think we all agree that the intent is the issue. The difficulty is that intent is extremely difficult to prove. All I am saying is that if THFC fans didn't make any Semitic references in their own chants, then opponents making Semitic references would be a clear sign of discrimination. However, because THFC fans do make Semitic references, opponents making the same references is no longer sufficient to impose punishments and instead you have to start proving it happened with a particular intent, not just that it happened.
