Leon, some of us do not proscribe to the Christian testament. Also the eye for an eye is and figurative expression indicating the perpetrator should suffer some sort of retribution for his/her crime(s), if one was to apply that to the crimes attributed to or admitted by the man you would need an awful lot of body parts. His actions and those of people nominally acting under his auspices were terrible and deserved no quarter when justice was dispatched, which is what he got.
i'm not sure that cost is a good reason not to try a man...but i do understand the argument. It seems though, that Obama made the decision to kill him without discussing it with any other world powers, though obviously i could be wrong. That does strike me as wrong. For the US President to agree to kill a man, without trial still doesn't sit right with me. Meanwhile, i'm flying to America in August...wish me luck!
Oh dear I will be worrying all the time you gonna be away now Not a christian myself as personally I think most religions are highly hypocritical! I do think what has happened was the common sense solution that could and should have been done much earlier! although I still think the timing of it was interesting ,considering the royal wedding and the lead up to the presidential elections in the US!
Zen - the only reason I brought up the subject of Christianity is that you quoted from the Bible. An eye for an eye comes from there so it was relevant to my argument.
Given the information we have and put in the boots of the US president I ask myself the question what would I have done? As I profess to be a Christian I also admit to being a human sinner who cannot reach the glorious moral high of Jesus Christ but I'm afraid I find myself compromised by the human emotions of vengeance, anger, pride and plain old bloodthirst. I've been through the test of attack or forgive and found out what I will do when the automatic reflex takes over so on a reflex front yes he needed to be killed and I have a thirst for a few more particularly Mugabe, Chavez and Gaddafi. Obama had to take him out or leave alone and that was never an option. The hornets nest that would have been stirred up with capture would have been enormous in terms of bombings and kidnappings. I personally feel on tenderhooks now as I'm sure there will be a backlash and I have trips planned for Egypt and USA in near future, I fear Egypt could be a big problem but heho.....
I agree with Norway that killing Bin Laden was the common sense solution. Although it will inevitably cause some terrorist outrages, he was an evil man and I am afraid I am not sorry he is dead. I just don't agree with celebrating the death of someone - we should feel slightly sorry that it was necessary in my book - but necessary it probably was. I too find most religions hypocritical - not least Christians who kill - but that goes too for many other religions. I stand by my assertion that if you really believe in a higher all powerful being then unless you are claiming he told you to do it then you really should have faith that he will sort it out himself. Bolts of lightning spring to mind Sorry if some people of a religious persuasion find this a bit flippant but in fact I have some very deeply held views about religion and regard a lot of the evil in the world as coming from people who justify their bad actions by their faith.
My actions often fight and conflict with my faith which makes my life a lot more difficult than if I could not believe... In Christianity there is human responsibility which means you must act in accordance with your conscience and believe that that is driven by God. That means I cant wait for a lightning bolt or the lottery numbers!!!
I find it all very confusing Aberdeen which is why although I have certain beliefs I have never been able to settle in one church. Within Christianity the likes of the Jehovah's Witnesses impress me immensely as they live their beliefs however painful that can be - witness their refusal to accept blood transfusions even if their children are dying - what faith must it take to do that? They are Pacifist. However although I respect them for their living their belief there is a lot they believe that I personally think they have got wrong so I could never join them. I have found other faiths I have studied equally confusing so perhaps your doctrine of acting by your conscience is a good compromise. However for me that is no more than I would expect any good person to do.
My belief is that in most religions a set of guiding principles is given and they are things that we should strive to attain. Certainly within the Christian faith there is acknowledgement that people will constantly fall short and need to realise and admit to it. In this instance I feel sure that if we were US citizens we would have a different view. Imagine if the planes had been flown into Canary Wharf. This man was an out and out terrorist, someone who sought to impose his will on others by means of terror. Not a resistance fighter, resisting an oppressor. He knew full well that he lived preaching hatred of people who did not think like him and felt that if he died in a violent manner he would achieve some form of immortality. My belief is that we should not take life. Imprisonment however was not an option in his case. Maybe he has received what he wanted.
Exodus, is the second book of the Torah, and 21:24 says "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" The third book, Leviticus 24:20 says "fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured." And the fifth and final, Deuteronomy 19:21 says, "Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." Hebraic law is pretty clear on the need for a punishment that fits the crime.
Does that mean be wary of 'crossing' Hornette-TID? Have to say that I'm impressed by your apparent intimate knowledge of religious tomes!
Yes - but the context is that it was limiting the punishment - previously people were going "over the top" in revenge - also it was given as a rule for the Courts to enforce not ordinary people. Also the New Testament which is the foundation of Christianity "updates" - bad word but I can't think how else to express it - a lot of the Old. Otherwise we would still have stoning etc. Jesus taught a philosophy of peace and love - love thy negihbour, do unto others, let he who is without sin cast the first stone etc. I have always been taught that if you join a club you should obey its rules - not just those you approve of - the Christian club - the one involving Jesus -not the fairly horrific brutal and violent Old Testament is one of love not hate. People choosing to use their own consciences whilst perfectly understandable in a violent world have led to the death of thousands if not hundreds of thousands across the centuries. If in Northern Ireland to give just one small example everyone had obeyed the "thou shalt not kill" a lot of misery and suffering would not have taken place. Only my opinion of course but I think if you accept Christ you have to live as you think he would have. Yes you will not be able to keep up to those standards all the time - but in those cases where you fall short you should be sorry and not seek to justify it. I am actually rather worried that this thread is on dangerous ground and I would hate to upset people of any religiion or none - so I am going to duck out of this from now on - unless anyone wants to start a "religious" topic where it would be clear that views that could offend would be shared.
I don't think that it is on dangerous ground Leo. The opinions expressed have all been from the individuals own point of view. At no point has anyone turned round and mocked anyone else. No one has objected to anothers statement. This to my mind shows that on this site we have a bunch of individuals who don't always agree, but are very tolerent, indeed interested, of what the others have to say.
You are spot on Leo. If I look at myself I'm definitely hypocritical, I cant get even 1% of where I should be, I think I have a good perspective of right and wrong but my carnal instincts are often stronger than my reasoned response. Thats why where permitted by law I carry firearms in the knowledge that I will use if the situation arises. You cant fight your instincts so its best to be prepared. i'd like to forgive, I'd like to turn the other cheak, I'd like to not seek worldly wealth and pleasure but I enjoy lots of this world and revenge does taste sweet.
I can only say that if Osama bin Laden had been caught here he would not stay in prison very long and we can not execute any one, that is the law. I think the last person killed like that here was in 1830. Also bin Laden was a figurehead for many people and his execution, which is probably a good thing for the world, will inspire some really intolerant people to try to avenge him.
Zen, I think that it has been a very difficult subject for many on here to grapple with. At the end of the day no one needs to feel that they have the definitive view point that everybody else should agree with.
Whats great about our society is that we can and do express our views and minorities have the rights to expression. What I do not like is the protection given to minorities who go beyond the moral code. Opens a big debate though as to who has the rights to set that code and apply the justice to support it....Whats dangerous about the Obama sanction is that one man has the unilateral right to decide that another has no rights, the precedent is a dangerous one and given american jingoism it could lead to one village next, then a town, then a city, then a nation, then a religion...... this could end in nukes on Iran and do you know any Iranians? If you do I wouldn't mind betting that they're good ones as the vast majority are.
