O/T James McClean rfuses to wear poppy.

Didnt know thats why we were fighting WW1 WW2 Stan??

I agree about politicians sacrificing brave men for nothing. The poppy's about acknowledging those brave men who did die for nothing, and also for something Stan. If ever there was a just war it was WW2.

 

Why stop there? Why not mention the concentration camps in South Africa during the boar war, or the atrocities in the Mau Mau uprising, or in India during it's fight (or non-fight) for independence?

Your argument is then that as soon as any member of any British Armed force in history commits an atrocity, you tar all those who have given their lives to defend our country and refuse to donate to the poppy appeal.

Presumably you do not take part in the remembrance ceremonies? Or are you a hypocrite?

I'm sorry but if the cost of remembering those who have died to protect the freedoms we now enjoy is that we also remember some who have not acted so honorably, then so be it.

As for MacLean, my point stands. If he is that principled why is he even in this country? Born in the UK or not he has chosen to play for Ireland, why doesn't he go and play there if he hates what this country stands for so much? I'll tell you why, MONEY! He has his principles but they have a price.

 

Why on earth do you imagine there is freedom of speech in this country?

 

Nail. On. Head. As I said I dont agree one bit with McClean's stance, but he has the freedom to choose.

 

The "Poppy appeal" is not exactly a fundamental aspect of life in Britain is it?

It is a charity which is somewhat prevalent for a few days a year. You would struggle to find a country to live in, where you agree with every single thing that happens every day...

 

OK Chazzman - WW2 was a kind-of just war, but only if you ignore the part the vengeful French played in the Versailles Treaty - a treaty which reduced Germany to bankruptcy and paved the way for Hitler and National Socialism.

 

Does the poppy appeal give money to the families of soldiers who fought in the Boer War?

No, my argument is that if the British army were to commit an atrocity in Dunfermline now I probably wouldn't want to give money to a charity that supports the families of any of the troops involved.

It's not hypocritical to be able to understand an opposing viewpoint.

Who says he hates this country and what it stands for? He disagrees with where a particular charity spends its money because of an incident in the area he grew up and has chosen not to do anything to help them as a result. The inevitable auction of the shirts would support the charity and he doesn't want to be associated with it.

 

WW2 is indeed the closest thing to a just war, but like you intimate, there's really no such thing as a squeaky clean jus ad bellum for conflict. The idea that we were fighting Nazism for anything other than national interest is a bit naive IMO. In any case, I think its pretty safe to assume that without a revisionist glorification of the moral righteousness of WW2, then no war could ever be considered just. Most veterans I know are probably clearer-minded than most on the value-free nature of war, they know its hardly ever about democracy or freedom, whether they're now-deceased WW2 vets or young lads fighting pointless wars in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean, the fact is that both of those two wars were (are being) fought for cold hard realpolitik reasons - keeping a place at the top table by kissing American arse. They have **** all to do with defending our freedoms or preventing terrorism.

And yet people like Brown and Cameron have the audacity to equate support for our troops (a noble thing) with support for the missions they send them on (9 times out of 10 a load of bollocks).

 

Very eloquently put. Far better than I did......

 

His decision i suppose.

 

see above

 

It's up to him if he wants to wear it or not, he obviously sees himself as an Eire citizen so thats his choice. Eddie Jordan the F1 guy did the same the other year and got tons of **** off people but again it's his choice.

 

I don't know about that. There are too many thought fascists out there. I can imagine Irish not wantung to wear one considering that during the blackouts Dublin residents lit the city up so German bombers could locate Liverpool.

 

I couldn't give a flying **** whether he wears one or not, that's up to him.

If I was a catholic from Derry I wouldn't wear one. After what the Paras did I'd probably detest the British Army and in all honesty the British as a whole.

In the eyes of the Irish it was seen a brutal occupation of Ireland by the British and Bloody Sunday served as a fine example of that in their eyes.

If I was an Irish catholic I wouldn't want to put my name against anything associated with Britain, including wearing a poppy.

Saying that I wouldn't go and live there either.
Oh hang on, he 's earning Christ knows how much more over here than he could 'back home'.


The ****ing half wit needs to make his mind up, his cause just looks shallow.

I'm with Strov on this one.

 

The point is Bloody Sunday is an incident related to him personally, he'll have friends and relatives who knew people killed that day, and any soldiers who were involved would have family receiving funds from the Poppy Appeal if they qualified from any event in their military careers. The Boer War is not something any of us have a personal connection with so the comparison is farcical.

You could say by voting in the SNP Dunfermline is as part of Scotland going for independence. If there were a terrorist group based in Dunfermline would it justify British troops coming and murdering the rest of the population when they were unarmed and protesting about something else?

I don't need to know whether the money is or not, the people condemning him for not wearing the poppy need to prove that they're not receiving it. His actions have been passive, he's not supporting the cause but he's not coming out in the press slagging them to **** either. If people are going to attack him over that then they'd better have evidence that he doesn't have a valid belief.

Whether I take part in the ceremonies is immaterial to the discussion, we're discussing why a specific individual would take a position of not wearing a poppy. The fact I said he had an opposing view should give you a hint though.

So every footballer from Northern Ireland who chooses to play for the Republic of Ireland rather than Northern Ireland has to be a Republican who hates this country? He can't be that opposed since he played for the NI U21s.

O'Neill didn't refuse to, he had one on his suit but not his training gear.

Incidentally, Sunderland say McClean asked not to wear one, not that he refused to wear one. There is a difference, it means Sunderland accepted his decision.

 

Why the fuk were they a neutral country then??

The Irish Justice Minister has issued an apology for his country's treatment of thousands of soldiers who deserted the Irish army to fight against the Nazis during the Second World War.
Alan Shatter, who is Jewish, suggested on Wednesday that a pardon was on the way for soldiers who left Ireland "to fight for freedom and who were subsequently dishonourably discharged from the defence forces".
Mr Shatter, the MP for Dublin South, said that for too long, the contribution of "many who fought in British uniforms during that war…in preserving European and Irish democracy" had been ignored.
Nearly 5,000 men deserted the politically neutral Irish forces to fight alongside the Allies, but on their return the Irish government refused to give them military pensions and blocked them from certain state roles. "It is untenable that we commemorate those who died whilst continuing to ignore the manner in which our State treated the living, in the period immediately after the war, who returned to our State having fought for freedom and democracy," said Mr Shatter
The pardon must be officially approved by attorney General Máire Whelan but has overwhelming political support.
Mr Shatter, speaking just days before International Holocaust Memorial Day, also criticised the "moral bankruptcy" of Irish neutrality during the war, including a visit by the then president to the German ambassador in 1945 to express condolences on Hitler's death.
"This was compounded by the then Irish government who, after the war, only allowed an indefensibly small number who survived the concentration camps to settle permanently in Ireland," he said. "At a time when neutrality should have ceased to be an issue the government...utterly lost its moral compass.