I think it's a legitimate point, actually. At what point does something become xenophobia or racism? Not sure that I agree with his overall train of thought, though.
Londoner, Cockney, Brummie, Scouser, Geordie etc reference to a persons origin and not a derogatory term, Luke used 'Scouser' as an example of an insult, bit naughty but not unexpected.
Black's not a derogatory term, but if you Terry-ise an assault, then it becomes a more serious crime. If you calling someone a ****ing Brummie **** while you give them a good pasting, then it's no worse, in the eyes of the law. How far does this extend? If I smack someone in the mouth and call them a stupid Jock, is that a hate crime? If not, then why not?
Those racists trying to have an undivided integrated set-up, they're tricky that lot. A separate union is the most ridiculous thing I've heard for a while. This is a move by a group for power using the black cause as it were, and totally fueled by the so called racism in the media lately.. Lets ignore real racism faced by people who cannot afford expensive top drawer lawyers, access to the media and an audience, union backing albeit not a "Black" union, and a football club and their resources behind them. All this nonsense is actually ramping up the abuse. If a black player can walk for being abused which I cannot say is right or wrong then imo any other player can walk for being called a **** or similar if we go by perceived offence, the act is the exact same. Abuse, you're not allowed do that on the street, copper will nick you and it doesn't have to be racial, screaming **** in someones face will get you done so why is it tolerated at football matches. All this attention to non racism must be driving the folks who really, silently endure it.. fkucing mad.
Unfortunately, that kind of progress only comes with time. It takes a different chain of thought beginning with the parents, through the education system, and on into everyday life. When I was young, there were far fewer black people, or indeed non native British people, around. Those there were stuck strictly to their chosen areas, and therefore there was little integration. Prejudice always is born of the unknown - the "different". As society has become slowly more integrated over the last 50 years or so, acceptance of people who are different to us has grown exponentially. Again, when I was young, The Black & White minstrel show was still acceptable prime time television. The few black footballers there were, such as Clyde Best, had to endure monkey chants ( and worse) and, in Bests' case run down the wing through a hailstorm of bananas. This was all deemed perfectly acceptable as it was only a bit of "fun" So yes, things have changed a lot. They need to change even more. But, it will take time. People like this rabble rouser Herbert do nothing positive for the advancement of racial or religious tolerance. They merely entrench intolerance.
I hope you're sitting down Page - I totally agree with you! Unfortunately though like all opportunists he's picked what looks like an easy target but the stupid thing is it has, in the past, seemed to bother nobody. If there had bneen real offence within the Jewish Community they would definitely have made their voice heard ages ago. Mind you, i suppose some will say he's done some good through becoming well known in the papers as further down the page it talks about him going to support a team in Leicester as their under 15s were subject to monkey chants. I'm sure the vast majoirty would agree that situation is far more serious and needs tackling.
I guess we'll see what sort of response the Met give after SBL submit their complaints to them after the 2Oth If it does go to court, you've always got HIAG to prepare your defence Good luck
After i sat down Dan i read this, A Jewish spokesman for the Tottenham Supporters' Trust has defended fans' rights to use chants that have been described as anti-semitic at matches.The Society of Black Lawyers (SBL) has called for Spurs fans who chant "Yid Army" to be prosecuted. But Daniel Wynne told BBC Sport: "I accept what the word means, but I don't find the chant offensive when used by Tottenham fans. "In that context it is used positively as a call to arms, a badge of honour." Tottenham's chanting of the Y-word, a reference to the club's Jewish supporters, is in the spotlight after SBL chairman Peter Herbert said unless the club or the Football Association took a stand on the matter he would report it to the Metropolitan Police. [h=2]Tottenham statement on chants[/h]"Our fans adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect anti-semitic abuse. Our position on this topic is very clear. The club does not tolerate any form of racist or abusive chanting. "Our guiding principle in respect of the Y-word is based on the point of law itself - the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is used, ie if it is used with the deliberate intention to cause offence. This has been the basis of prosecutions of fans of other teams to date. "They do not use the term to others to cause any offence, they use it a chant amongst themselves. "We believe this is the area that requires a determined and concerted effort from all parties and where we seek greater support to eradicate." Herbert received support from Jewish comedian David Baddiel, who argued in the Daily Mail that Spurs fans had no right to redefine the meaning of a historically offensive term for Jews. In a statement, Spurs insisted the chanting, which dates back to the 1970s, was a "defence-mechanism" against taunts from rival fans. At Thursday's Europa League match against Maribor, supporters responded to Herbert's call by chanting "we sing what we want" and "Y-word Army" throughout the match. Wynne, a former chairman of the Supporters' Trust Board, says despite his heritage he willingly joins in the Y-word singing at matches. "My father escaped Nazi Europe and settled in England," he said. "I've been to Auschwitz, I've been to the Anne Frank House, I've been to Yad Vashem [the World Centre for Holocaust Research] in Jerusalem. My wife's family also had to be uprooted. "If someone wants to come and throw that word at me in the street, I would be upset by it and if I thought Tottenham fans were using it offensively then I would be campaigning shoulder to shoulder with David Baddiel and others to stop them using it. But the fact of the matter is we are not. "When Spurs fans sing it is just a name, in the same way that the black community use certain words for themselves and the same way that the homosexual community use certain words for themselves. "By taking ownership of that word, by using it ourselves, it shows we are not bothered by what people are singing about us." [h=2]Analysis[/h]"I understand that it can be used as a nickname in some quarters, but if it's important to stop the use of the word then you can't use it either way. "You can't use it as a nickname or a chant for Tottenham because abusive chants will come back. The more they use it, the more opposition fans will use it. If it is banned altogether then hopefully we won't get the abuse at all. It needs to be tackled in the same way as racist chanting. "The sanctions need to be high and then it will be stamped out of the game for good. We need zero tolerance." Oldham's Dean Furman, who is Jewish Tottenham say they accept the use of the Y-word as long as it is not intended to carry offence, although no merchandise bearing the term is allowed to be sold in the club shop. In a statement released to the BBC on Friday, the FA said it would continue to work with the club. "The FA acts on all reported incidents of discrimination and we continue to work with both Tottenham Hotspur and the Crown Prosecution Service on the matter of anti-Semitic chanting," an FA spokesman said. "The FA takes all matters of discrimination with the utmost seriousness and encourages the reporting of any such incidents through the appropriate channels." Wynne argues that the focus of any crackdown should be directed towards other clubs' fans, who use the Y-word as a term of abuse towards Spurs. "I feel the point is being missed be a number of people," he said. "They need to focus their attentions on Chelsea fans, West Ham fans and a number of other clubs who use it in a derogatory way. That is what has to stop." Wynne's views were largely echoed by Bernie Kingsley, a member of the Tottenham Supporters' Trust board. Kingsley, however, said he would not chant the word himself because he is aware of the offence it can cause. "I don't use the word at all because I have very close friends who are Jewish and they don't like it but I think a lot of the arguments being put forward by Spurs fans are perfectly legitimate. " Kingsley told BBC Sport. Kingsley believes the SBL are wasting their time in pushing for the police to prosecute. "You can't stop 5,000-10,000 people from chanting it," he said. "For those people it isn't racist because they are not using it in that context." Dean Furman objects(as a jewish lad)that Spurs fans have the right to use the 'yid army' chant as a badge of honour, but as a non Spurs fan does he have the right to object? Do muslim players have the right to refuse to play on their sabbath day(the same for christian's and jew's)?, There's a can of worms being opened in the game by the society of black lawyers and there will be lots of lawyers of every colour and creed making a fortune out of the many court cases ahead. maybe that's part of their overall agenda.
Dean Furman's an ex-Chelsea youth player. He seems to be following Baddiel's twisted train of thought.
Herbert and his ilk are self promoting rabble rousers. Four hundred years ago he'd have been burning witches in the town square. If Furman, as a Jew, genuinely objects. Fair enough, I can respect his opinion. However, it's just one mans' views. Does that mean that his views and wishes have to take precedent over the wishes and enjoyment of thousands of others? IMO, No. As for the highly unfunny Mr Baddiel, he'll jump,on anything that vaguely resembles a bandwagon.
It's not my field, PESKIE. By the way, I am considered very good at what I do. I doubt you could afford me, though, and I don't do pro bono work. Sorry.
People would call me white, but I'm more blotchy-pink. Therefore, calling me white is offensive. Where's that Herbert chappie? I want to sue someone.
Here, interestingly, there's a kind of growing embarrassed silence on the issue. "African-American" still seems too much of a mouthful. "African" seems to be rising, slowly, when it can be used to describe culture. People are actually saying "Black" much less than they used to, a sign, I would guess, that it's falling by the wayside, as novel terms for Indians (American Indians, Native Americans, First People, Original People) and those of African descent (negro, colored, African American) tend to do. There's political hay to be made by leading a fight to change a politically sensitive designation, so people tend to do it. It really may not be long before the Peter Herberts of the world object to the term "Black." Incidentally: I was merely pointing out that race is a popular fiction earlier; species is a meaningful term (as is religiion and nationality), race is not. By the standards of this popular fiction, I'm not of African descent, (though by the standards of simple truth, all of us are.)
We won't have truly conquered racism until there is no longer any need to qualify a description of a person by expressing their ethnicity, however PC the label may be.
I know a wide variety of people from Africa and I've never heard any of them describe themselves as black or even African, for that matter. Nationality tends to be far more important, in my experience, as some countries have a real dislike for others, much like we have in Europe. As HIAG says, the whole thing should be on the way out now, anyway.
