It's a total non-sequitur to compare a club's fans chanting something they've been doing for years to a fan suddenly deciding to use the term now. Like it or lump it the term "Yiddo" has significant connotations to supporting our club which goes back to when there were huge anti-semtism problems in football from clubs across the country directed at the club. There so much distance from that and a Jewish fan of another club trying to use it or even a large group of fans trying to adopt it, the fact that this needs to be pointed out to you suggests you don't "get it" and never will.
Peter Herbert is a black barrister with some letters after his name, who has been about a bit, and considers himself a know-all on the subject. http://www.peterherbert.net/ This a free country, i have the right to sing within the law within the confines of a stadium full of like minded people. Other people are not forced to listen to it, they are free to avoid WHL, just as I am free to avoid anything that annoys me. Anyone who 'chooses' to be offended having been given valid reason not to, is in breach of inciting a racism issue that really doesn't have to be there. If thats the way they want it, then why is it ok to be outside a stadium in earshot of a concert by a black rap artist using his racial words his way!...double standards.
That was attacking you? Behave. You deliberately or otherwise totally misunderstood what another user was saying and are continuing to now as you're intent on responding to something that wasn't written or implied by what I'd said. You'll notice that I didn't actually write anything other than fact in the post you replied to and there was no way of knowing anything about my views apart from that I felt you were wrong, missing the point and probably just disagreeing for the sake of it.
In vaguely related news, Millwall have banned a 13-year-old fan for racially abusing Marvin Sordell of Bolton. Interestingly though, they've decided to give him an indefinite ban and offered to try to educate and rehabilitate him, in light of his age and background.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...r-defend-fans-over-alleged-abuse-8294105.html Some quotes from Tottenham Hotspur's response, pointing out the obvious for those in any doubt.
Peter Herbert living up to his surname: Asked about Jewish fans themselves singing the chant, he said: "That's not acceptable either." It seems that we're fine legally and he's a twat: "Our guiding principle in respect of the 'Y-word' is based on the point of law itself - the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is used i.e. if it is used with the deliberate intention to cause offence. This has been the basis of prosecutions of fans of other teams to date. Off to report the Society of Black Lawyers for discrimination. The intent of such discrimination is irrelevant, apparently...
Sorry, but you are also making an incorrect assumption. You are usually one of the more open minded Spurs fans on here, so I'm a little surprised by that, but all the same I'll spell it out for you: I get it. Spurs fans have 'adopted' the term 'Yiddo' to try and reclaim it from it's anti-semetic connotations, however that in itself does not make it an inoffensive chant. There are Jewish people who find it offensive and that alone should be enough for action to be taken. There is an argument that Spurs have abused the term 'Yiddo', by trying to claim some kind of moral exclusivity to it's use - at the expense of the Jewish community. Spurs are not a 'Jewish' club, they happen to be situated in an area with a large Jewish population, as do Arsenal - there is also an argument that suggests that Spurs fan's constant reference to it, simply further encourages anti-semetism in football as they are using it as a battle cry to separate themselves from others and thereby ostracise the Jewish population as something 'separate' At best, the term Yiddo as used by Spurs fans is a misappropriation of the word. In the process of trying to 'empower' the Jewish community, it's use by Spurs fans could in fact be seen as an abuse, trying to align the plight of the Jews with the fortunes of a football club. This is what I mean by 'belittling' the term. Even your own players and ex players are against the use of the word. And I would suggest that this recent report will look not just at 'away fans' as PNP asserts, but at the behaviour of Spurs fans, who maybe unwittingly are engaging in anti-semitism, even if they think that their intent is right. [video=youtube;RIvJC1_hKt8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIvJC1_hKt8[/video]
I think that will be called into question if this report gathers pace. How do you, in law, differentiate between one person shouting 'Yiddo' and another, based on the colour of the shirt they are wearing ? A Jewish Arsenal fan could legitimately argue that they were using the term in a non offensive way, as could an anti-semite wearing a spurs shirt.
Sorry Piskie, but Franklin Foer is clearly an idiot. He's a political journalist and his book isn't even about football, something of which he appears to lack much understanding. Identifying all Spurs fans as Yids clearly conveys the complete opposite message that he's claiming it does. It's as clear an illustration that you could get that we're not identifying Jews as outsiders, but are a part of the club that we're proud of.
Members of the Jewish community is not the same as 'The Jewish Community' and to infer that the whole community is not happy is patently untrue otherwise Spurs would not have Jewish supporters joining in the chant.
You want to be careful you don't get banned from the forum with your username The world's gone mad. Given the signifcance of Tottenham within the Jewish Community (well certainly that in London) I am convinced that if this was a serious issue then it would have been highlihted before now. Being really cynical it would hardly surprise me if fans of other clubs were complaining just because they've been told to stop singing other stuff.
In the same way a black rap artist can shout the 'n' word in his lyrics...its just a song would be his defence, fully supported by the SBL no doubt!
Why would that be? If a Jewish fan can deemed to be wrong for singing it then by the same token there a Jewish person can be equally wrong for taking offence to it. That on it's own isn't even close to being enough. There isn't any one voice of the Jewish community and being outrage to something is commonly an attractive idea for someone to raise popularity and that's what's happening here. These chants aren't new and aren't something that's been kept secret, the SBL are covering their bases so they can't be accused of ignoring issues. It's not an issue that's gone under the radar simply because it isn't something that's an issue, the vast majority of people that are aware of the chanting and aware of the history behind it are not offended by it and haven't been in all the years there have been these chants because if you understand it, it's not offensive. It can't be seen as abuse because there's no intent to abuse and the idea that it belittles Jews by suggesting that the use of the word tries to align thee plight of the club and the Jewish race is totally tenuous. I'm not sure there is even any way to back that up because it's chanting "yido" is so far removed from likening abuse at the club and fans to the whole of Jewish history and every atrocity within it. You only have to watch Brass Eye to know that celebrities will put their name to anything without really thinking about it for themselves. King doesn't really have a good choice once he's approached, it's a no brainer to play it safe and back Baddiel's campaign. I'm off for a bit but I'll get back to you later if I can.
It would be wise for the Society for Black Lawyers to ask Arsenal to tell their fans to stop chanting that they'd rather be a person from a South Asian background than a Hasidic Jew. Just saying...
Sorry, you can dress it up all you like and cite the fact that it hasn't been a 'problem' before. Racism and Homophobia weren't a 'problem' until society eventually caught up and realised that they were. It then rightly attempted to tackle it. I fully understand where Spurs fans are coming from with it. I just think your fans and your club are on very shaky ground in the modern day with trying to brush it under the carpet by saying: 'it's not meant offensively, therefore nobody is offended' As for your comment about celebrities not thinking before they put their name to something, even as a Gooner I would feel offended towards Ledley King and Gary Lineker with that comment. Do you really think that they both just went along with this, without even thinking about it ?
Yes, that's the point. All racist and derogatory chanting should be targeted. Even the chants that are meant 'nicely' and have been 'going on for years'
What are you PISKIE, our PC voice of standard thought? Celebrities will follow the standard line and in this case they are noted for their skill in football not their deep philosophical thought. We are not trying to brush it under the carpet that is what YOU are suggesting we do.
I'm not suggesting that you brush it under the carpet, quite the opposite in fact. What I'm saying is that is what the club are doing when they say it's not offensive to anybody as it's not meant offensively. They are trying to dismiss it as a problem. Are you dismissing Gary Lineker and Ledley King's opinon on this as being an example of their lack of philosophical insight ? I would suggest that that is an attempt to unfairly disparage your own players, based on your own prejudices, because they have highlighted an issue that you are not comfortable with.
