I still think its far too early for any true judgement on AVB as a manager. He was never going to be a 'quick fix' manager, he's very different to Harry and it shows in so far as some of the players are still getting used to new ways. It was always going to be a bumpy ride this season, and I find it somewhat amusing that people who have critiqued the likes of Liverpool and Chelsea for not sticking with new managers and giving them time are now calling for AVB's head after 10 games. I'd understand it much better if we were down in the dumps like we were when Harry took over but the fact is that we're not. As to where we are now, I'm not unduly worried yet. We're 5th on goal difference with a new manager, new system and some key injuries, not to mention the losses of Modric and VdV, two players without whom the squad of any team in the Prem would be significantly weaker. Consistency is our issue (as it always has to an extent) - replicating our performances against Utd et al against then other teams. For AVB to use some variation in the formation he uses would be welcome as well but to some extent the lack of this is due to what we have on the bench. If we get some good personnel in January then perhaps he won't have to switch systems. With what we have available right now then perhaps, as LDL suggested we should sometimes switch to 4-4-2 sometimes. We'll see if this happens, every manager has their problems after all. No-one gets it right all the time. Dembele is a huge miss for us, I know everyone has been saying it but it needs repeating! In January we need to find backup for him and find some strength in depth up front. He's absolutely central to how we play under AVB and we've seen it work at times, mainly when Dembele has been on the pitch. It's not exactly a coincidence is it. Personally I would like to see Ade up front now as well, I'm a fan of Defoe and you can't argue with his goalscoring record but Ade is more of a footballer. I've lost count of the amount of times this season already where Defoe has had a chance to pass or shoot and has taken the 'shoot' option instead of a simple square ball to an unmarked man in a better position. When he shoots on sight and they all go in it's brilliant but it doesn't always happen. I know it's a somewhat harsh/dubious thing to pick up on but for me, Ade should be given his chance. I'd like to see Lloris starting all the time now as well. He's the man IMO. If we get our players back and strengthen in the right areas then we will be in the right place at the end of the season. Teams around us will have bad patches and injuries just as we have and no doubt will have again. Keep the faith. For the record, with everyone fit: Lloris Walker - Kaboul - Verts - BAE Sandro - Dembele Lennon - Sigg - Bale Ade
What would be the point in appointing AVB if he was going to do the same things as Harry? The idea must surely to retain our flair but in a more solid system that means we hold on to a few more points when playing badly. I agree that we need to get top four and I can't see why we shouldn't if we get some of our best players back soon. The next two matches will be interesting. Spurcat says we had a better team than Wigan yesterday. Well unless three of Lloris, BAE, Sandro, Ade and Dembele are playing we won't have a better team than Arsenal and we've not got a better team than Man City whoever is available. If we get anything out of these two games we should count our blessings. Harry lost them by 8-4 last season.
OS is right, we did have a far better eleven out there than Wigan - on paper. But, to rehash the old adage, the game isn't played on paper. I tend to agree with Luke, had we gone at them from the start, with both Ade and Defoe, I think we may well have overwhelmed their defence. AVB has to take the blame for being too inflexible, and as Luke has said, too unnecessarily cautious.
Still way to early to judge IMO. Normally I'd agree with David Moyes and say it's best to judge teams after 10 games but no team has started THAT well in terms of results and performances. Sunderland and Villa absolutely atrocious sides but still clear of the bottom 3 comfortably. I think after 15 games we will know where all the clubs are at. For you guys that's after you play: City (A) Arsenal (A) West Ham (H) Liverpool (H) Fulham (A) I've been impressed with all of Spurs away performances but none of their home performances. I think with a full strength team you'll probably get 2/3 from 6 in your next 2 games. Like most of the top teams this year, your finding it easier to play away from home
I dunno. I think Everton's First XI is as good as any. If they can keep Mirallis, Fellaini, Baines and Jagielka fit they will fancy their chances for sure, they look better at home than Spurs although Spurs look better away. I still think Arsenal will come good. Form and momentum is probably with Everton right now but I don't think there's much in it between them, Spurs and Arsenal.
For the squad we have and the injuries to key players we have I'll take joint 4th after 10 games. There is so much football to be played. I think people are under estimating the loss of Kaboul,Parker and Ade. These are influential players in each area of the team for us. I see us in the mix come March/April. We are 7 points off the top. That to me makes it sound like we think we should be sat at the top due to the quality of our team, the way some people are carrying on.I think joint 4th is about right for what we have on the pitch so far.
So far its been a mixed bag but we are fifth and have had a lot of injuries so can't complain too much. Plus AvB wanted Moutinho and it wasn't his fault we didn't get him so I feel for him a bit tbh as Moutinho is class and would give us the creative edge we lack without Dembele. I'll back AvB until he makes a major cockup and so far he hasn't. COYS!!!
With Benny back linking with Bale, Verts and Kaboul in the middle and Sandro and Parker back we are a completely different proposition. I know we have been lacklustre, but considering we have those players out we have done reasonably well in general. Fifth is not that bad right now. Early days, back AVB and the team. Booing is not helping them at home.
What would constitute as a major cockup? Personally I think he's made a fair few cockups, whether people would say they're major or not though is another matter. Allowing Rafa to go (probably is major actually), isolating certain players, starting with two out an out DM's at home, continuing to select underperforming players while keeping what many of would consider better players on the bench and poor substitutions in games.
Surely all these are matters of opinion rather than cock-ups, SoS. I may be coming over as rather anti-Harry, which I'm not as I think he had us punching a little above our weight and we were a joy to watch. However I think that finishing below Arsenal when at one point we were so far clear of them and 2-0 up at the Emirates did constitute a major cock-up.
Of course they're opinions but surely most others would agree that these are mistakes/ cock ups that have either cost us or potentially cost us? I don't see you as anti-Harry. We just have deferring opinions and I suppose to many I probably come over as anti-AVB (though I probably am ). Agreed the fiasco of the last ten or so games last season was a horrendous cockup and there's no excuses for that but I'm pretty sure in saying had Chelsea not won the Champions League and we'd have been playing CL football this season, it wouldn't have been brought up as often as it has (despite it still being a disappointing end to a season).
Some of the Redknapp supporters have been waiting for their I told you so moment and are obviously thinking the time is right to launch it now. Helped by the media who seem to long for that moment as well, it's not a great help to AVB and the team. His caution is understandable given the forces against him ready to pounce at any poor result for Spurs. If we really want success for Spurs and AVB then we have to show support for him and we need to get over the love affair with Harry. Frustrating it may be, but you should be used to that with Spurs, let's not encourage the media at every hurdle. The more we show support for the team and the manager the more confident they will become and the better the performances. If you really want more positive play form Spurs then give the manager the confidence to go for it and stop harping on about how wild you are about Harry.
I've made my thoughts pretty clear on the Wigan match thread. I tend to agree with the views of SOS, Spurcat and a few others. totally behind AVB for the reasons I have already mentioned prior to this post, but the 1 area I feel he can help himself is by changing formation for a few games. a mixture of injuries and poor performances with players who just aren't suited, have left us with no real choice, IMO. putting aside that he's supposed to be some tactical genius (yet to see), anyone with an ounce of common sense would try something else, in light of the recent results and more importantly, the performances. Hopefully AVB will do this, otherwise we'll end up seeing "boo's" turning into banners at this rate!! The thing that I can't work out at the moment, is why so many fans are on the managers back? yes, he needs to adapt his tactics in light of injuries and poor performances, and yes he shouldn't be so rigid, and yes his subs have been fairly strange... but can you imagine being in his position? no benny, Kaboul, Ade, parker pretty much all season (some all season) all of whom are first team players, and 2 signings that haven't worked at all so far. - did he even sign Sig? or was that Levy? last season when we had modric, I remember bashing my head against a brick wall saying "we need another creative player. We're useless when modric has a poor game or isn't available and have no one else". - This summer we signed Dembele. although not like for like, a very good creative player all the same. but we needed him last year when we had modric too! Now modric has left ,we're in the same position. In addition, we lost VDV. Now, that was obviously going to be a blow, but one we could have handled, had we done things correctly in the window. IMO, the 90% of our issues don't lie with the manager. as someone else quite rightly pointed out, chelsea are still playing the same formation and it's working. But that's because they've got the players and they've spent the money. we obviously can't spend that sort of money, but we could have done better. As has been mentioned, our net spend is 4 or 5 mill. we just can't expect to get the quality we need without spending some of the money required. players have a fee for a reason, some of which are ridiculous. but there's still loads of talent that's worth paying the money for. which brings me onto our expectations for 4th. - Why do we (the club + levy) demand CL football when we've only had it once? why has the new manager got the same expectation, when the club won't make a net spend which even remotely suggests that we're here to compete with those above us? or, for that matter, the willingness to properly support the man they've just brought in? I just think the expectations are unrealistic based on the level of support from the chairman/owners. It's not fair on AVB when the problem is really down to the hierarchy, IMO. Once again this season will be a half hearted, shoestring attempt to finish 4th unless he's properly backed in Jan to get who we missed out on, due to our usual ridiculous last min transfer policy. - but that's not likely to happen as Jan prices are massively OTT. we either spend something to show we're attempting to compete, which then gives us more of a right to believe we should get 4th. Or Levy gets realistic with his season targets for the club.
It's not even about being pro-Harry or not. You're the one making these assumptions. For sure I'd take Harry back in a heart beat but my criticism of AVB isn't based on Harry, it's based on the fact he's so far been a sh*t manager (in my opinion), admittedly it doesn't help at the fact I never wanted him but what else can I do? I always cheer the team at WHL and I join in with the AVB songs. In what way is it possible to give him the confidence to get the team to play well or make what I (and judging by other posters on here) would consider better selections? He already knows who he wants in his team and the style of play he wants to implement, there's nothing we can do to give him this so called confidence "to go for it".
Everyone makes mistakes - but I can't see that 17 points from 10 games is evidence of a series of major cock-ups especially with half the team out injured. You seem to think we should have got another nine points (and so we would if we had drawn at Newcastle and with Chelsea and won all the home games). If we had done this we would be clear at the top and udefeated with 26 points - and he would have had the best start of any of our managers ever - even Bill Nicholson only got 18 points (counting three for a win) from his first ten games. This is unrealistic with our squad and the standard of the PL.
As you yourself profess your support for Harry it's not an assumption is it? You show no patience in your analysis and little understanding of the problems facing AVB. AVB was almost forced into caution and fear by a loaded media and a large number of fans who didn't want him. He is a human being and therefore subject to the same doubts as anyone else. I doubt that any Spurs fan is happy with our performance against Wigan, how could you be, but it does not follow that we have to begin the Harry would have, comments. When criticising others judgement it's as well to have a look at your own performance.
Does anyone think we would be any higher than 5th right now with Redknapp in charge still? With the injuries we had/have then we have to be happy to be there imo.
Compare the situation with Ramos. He did not arrive with a media and fanbase against him he was given time to fail before that started. He created the situation that led to his sacking. AVB has not been given that chance, he has had an uphill battle from day one. If he does fail it will be in no small way due to the hostile environment he has had to work in. If he succeeds it will be despite of it and will be a great achievement. The dice are loaded for AVB.
I was saying you're making the assumption that I'm judging AVB because of Harry. I don't. I judge AVB on his past and his performance as Spurs manager, which has been poor. Why was he forced into caution? No one said he had to make the decisions he did. Yes he's human but he's a manager of a top English football club, there's always going to be pressure, from the media, fans and his own board. It's not just the performance of Wigan that's got me criticising, we've looked lacklustre in 90% of our games with Utd, Reading and Villa aside. We've drawn at home to Norwich, WBA and lost to Wigan and Chelsea. There were hardly any positives to take out of any them games. Not to mention our Europa form has been average at best despite playing a strong team and we're out of the CO Cup already. I've sympathised that he hasn't had a full squad but I wonder if he'd know how to utilise it considering he's leaving what I'd consider to be better players on the bench already. I don't criticise people's judgement, I question it at times - hence the reason for a debate and the reason we're on a forum - but I certainly won't criticise others for their opinions. You seem to criticise more than any Spurf, so take your own comments into consideration.
I don't know about being the most critical, but you are right I do criticise and therefore take my own comments seriously. I don't disagree with you about Spurs performance but I do disagree with you and others on the methods you choose to highlight them. I describe you as impatient because you do not fully take into account the injuries to very key players and the time it takes for a new manager (any new manager) to bed in and get the team performing in his way. Plus references back to Harry which is the least helpful of all.
