Some believe protection is better than cure. Some confuse "freedom" with being free to do whatever one wants. What about the normal fan's freedom to go watch a football match without these drunken louts spoiling the experience or even worse getting hurt or killed? "No problem, if a fan kills another fan we will arrest him and he will go to jail." At least we will have preserved the perp's freedom eh?
Sorry, but "self policing" and "let fans sort it out amongst themselves" is nonsense. Let football fans be football fans? Why do football fans have to resort to chanting filth at each other? Why must there be foul language? Why abuse the ref when a decision goes against your team? All totally unnecessary. I was in Cape Town for two weeks in 2010 and went to three games - Portugal/Spain, Argentina/Germany and Uruguay/Holland. No trouble at any, all fans partying hard together before and after games...why? Fans knew what the consequences would be if they stepped out of line, so they behaved. Why is it that at a rugby match rival supporters can sit together no probs, they support their teams rather than shout vile chants at each other, and the ref's decision is accepted as final? Oh, the players adhere to a respect code, and the fans adhere to a respect code. Its not hard, but it starts with self respect, and respect for others.
OK then, let's define freedom so you don't hit me with this rights bullshit ('right to be..' 'right not to be...'). That gets us nowhere; I can invent a human right that every child should inherit £500,000,000. Or that everyone has the right not to have to pay at shops. It's total rubbish. Each person is autonomous in my view. Live as you like, as long as you don't physically attack someone else, because that violates their own autonomy. As long as this autonomy is respected universally, freedom exists. So football fans can say, sing or shout whatever they want, whether that spoils the 'experience' of others or not. That is totally subjective - I only have time for reason-based objective moral arguments. All the rest is hot air to be dealt with by speaking to people rather than arresting them. If someone does violate another person's autonomy or property, let them be arrested and punished. But that's the only fair instance. No riot police caging and kidnapping people for shouting things. Err... because it's fun. You're basically saying you want tribalism and passion evicted from football. No wonder you're so anti-Leeds fans with your rants about LUST: you want football turned into ****ing rugby or cricket with a load of non-fanatical drones populating our stands. And to think I was under the impression that Leeds fans were a special breed.
JLA - there is a balance between freedom and control. Take it too far down either way and there is a problem. What you have suggested initially is too controlling and takes us back to the 80s. What you are incorrectly asserting is that anyone that argues the freedom point is advocating a complete loss of regulation. That would be anarchy. I believe we have the balance about right, right now. It has taken a long time to get to this point. There are regulations that are not being enforced, and that can't be blamed on the fans, but omn the auhtorities who have the powers to do something, but they often choose not to. In cases like on Friday, the guy has been caught and punished by the justice system. End of story - it all works. But there will always be those that overstep the mark in society irrespective of the regulation boundaries. LLower theboundaries, andyou just cause antagonism and push currently law-abiding people into thebracket of criminal, when there is no need. You also endup with power hungry stewards and bouncers beating people up (because clubs won' t pay for expensivepolice) and backing each other in a court of law against the little guy. You may also get gangs of hooligans returning because they know they will get a good reaction My view is we haveit about right - it is a good balance, maybe a little tweak but your proposal is too far right
You are right. Your dismissive (some may opine abusive) language towards another person and/or their opinion gets us nowhere. Adopting an attitude of only you're right and no on else's opinion other than yours is to be respected is really not conducive to a conversation - on this forum or any other venue. I think all that most of us are looking for is a civilized experience (yes, that is subjective but when >90% or whatever that overwhelming majority is agrees on that, do you have a problem with that standard?) at a sporting event. If that goes against your view of freedom, then there is not much to discuss, I suppose. Thanks for playing.
If you can't handle a Yorkshireman speaking his mind - without personal insults, I'd add - maybe you're in the wrong place. Your inconsequential stylistic critiques are noted. The thing to discuss is where the line is drawn. For me, the line is drawn at the point of physical aggression. Where do you think it should be drawn, and I mean specifically rather than using a rather vague term like 'civilized behaviour'? People go to the football to have fun, not behave like they would in an office or classroom.
I almost agree with you Billy, but for 2 points. 1. I use the most disgusting foul language at the match, & 2. I abuse referees, bigstyle. And you know what, I'd give up going if I couldn't have the freedom to do either. I'm 54 years of age now and not one of my close or wider family has ever heard me swear. Why not? I've always had a release at the fitba', and let rip there. Why do I abuse the referees? Generally because they deserve it, like the prat in charge tonight. I wasn't too bad until we got relegated, and tbh, the standard of referees has been shocking. I think I only really got upset at Fat Jeff in the Premier League, and with good reason - he hated us, it showed, & he admitted it! Bastard.
Sorry, don't have time to respond to your whole post but for the meantime: "balance between freedom and control" - interesting choice of words - referees use this concept through out games, substituting "freedom" with "flow." When to let fouls go to keep the game flowing and when to blow the whistle for those same fouls or even lesser ones as the game is getting out of control with the possibility of boiling over. "What you have suggested initially is too controlling" - interestingly, I think my proposal is less controling and is only implemented at a sign of trouble. Checking tickets and IDs is way more controlling and "infringes on the freedom of innocents." "you are incorrectly asserting is that anyone that argues the freedom point is advocating a complete loss of regulation" - I believe I was probably responding to Exodus G, whom it appears is suggesting the anarchy you mention but I won't try to speak for him, he can respond to that point.
Agreed, but when someone's "fun" infringes on someone else's "fun" then we have a problem. This is why you have laws in place in society. Please point to any post by anyone, anywhere, ever that has even suggested "an office or classroom" behaviour or standard.
But that's so subjective, it can mean anything. Me celebrating a goal by shouting could 'infringe on the fun' of a frail old man in front of me, but I'd generally take the view that he shouldn't be exposing himself to that kind of environment if he knew what were in store. It's too much of a grey area - I'm trying to simplify things here and make them more black and white. BillysStatue saying there should effectively be no swearing or edgy chanting whatsoever. The other fans I've spoken to on other forums on here, who said they'd prefer an American football atmosphere where there's no animosity or banter between fans, just passionless, droning acceptance, foam hands and beer can hats. I believe there should be some form of hierarchy there to keep order, so to describe it as 'anarchy' would be misleading. I think stewards should have the power to eject and punish people who attack innocents. If they get attacked in the process of doing that, they should be able to defend themselves reasonably. That's it.
JLA - I admit to some assumptions here as I was not in South Africa, and I think you wrote you were, so I am happy to bow to your knowledge of how it worked there. All I do know is the bouncers at ER are dickheads already ansd I really do not want them having more powers. I prefer the professionals who are accountable to do the policing, despite the occasional mishaps. I agree with the ref analogy, exactly how it is done
That is PRECISELY my point. We don't want the bouncers handling this stuff. We want a small, well trained police force from the visiting club's police force (WY for us, I guess) that can come in with shock and awe and surgically remove the one or two individuals who are behaving in an unacceptable manner. Yes, "unacceptable manner" is totally subjective - but with the appropriate thought and other processes this can be easily established amongst the stakeholders. Also see Billy's Statue's comments above about how it worked in Cape Town - I was there for the Netherlands v Uruguay game too!
Thats what its like in Australia as well. Such a dull atmosphere and I used to go to the games just because I enjoyed going not to support a specific team but now I rarely go just because the atmosphere is so dry. Lets be honest, a game where home and away supporters are allowed to sit together is just ****ing boring Yes but this could so easily ruin atmosphere. From my experience, people who are well trained like to use there training and overstep the line. Another thing is where do they stop the line, as more people complain about more trivial things they start to take that into account as well and slowly destroys atmosphere. Also, "well trained" implies money. Who pays for that, people are already annoyed by Bates' ticket prices
When European police forces try to 'surgically remove' people by wading in with riot shields and batons, they tend to get a kicking off the fans, especially in highly-charged away ends (which, by the way, will be a lot more heated than your average international crowd at the world cup, which the hardcore club fans don't tend to travel to). The confrontational approach just makes things worse. I think CCTV in public spaces is generally a bad thing, but if it can be used to identify those who hurt innocent people in these instances and retrospectively arrest them, fair enough. The current system isn't broken - one keeper taking a slap isn't the end of the world.
This is a VERY valid point. He/we got off lightly this time. Next time, perhaps the moron has a knife? Not broken? Really?!?!?!?!
At LA Galaxy games there are two areas on opposite sides of the stadium that are inhabited by fervent Galaxy fans who sing and chant throught games. Opposing fans sit elsewhere. Plenty of atmosphere for a crowd of 26,000 or so, no vile chants, no foul language (as far as I have heard the few times I go per season and no violence). Perhaps the fans here are more civilized or perhaps they know security/police do not mess about over here. Who pays for the destruction and injury caused now? Everything one does involves cost and benefit.
Ever refereed a match Whitejock? Ever opened a law book and actually read what the laws are? You are still a reasonably young guy. Why not sign up with your local referee group and go out and do some games on the weekend. I mean it is obviously so easy, right? For the most part, many fans who scream their vitriol at referees are quite ignorant of the situation and the applicable laws they are yelling about. This is made even worse by many ex-players and managers, some of whom were capped many times by their nations, sitting in the commentary box and talking absolute excrement about situations on the field and the calls made or not made. This just further enhances fan ignorance. I was a fan for many years before I became a ref and was shocked at how many misperceptions I and other fans had when I completed my first class. Rant over.
You can have the best of both This is a one off incident though rather than a cost that happens every single time a game is on
Not quite. This was just one of the highest profile/worst incidents. There are numerous incidents every season. Then there are the other 91 league clubs. Additionally, there are hidden costs like all those fans who stay home rather than risk injury by attending games (opportunity cost).
