Article: 2013 Driver Line-ups, News & Rumours | Formula one

Depends on whether he means "greats" in the top 20 BBC style sense with Hakkinen, Piquet, Lauda etc (which Vettel has definately earned inclusion) or "greats" as in Schumacher, Senna, Fangio, Prost. Reading the full article he is full of praise for Seb.

Also it is impossible to know exactly where a driver will place until they retire. Vettel has a lofty spot thanks to what will surely now be three titles, but if he was to stop immediately there would be a question mark. A Good stint at Ferrari would probably remove it.

 

How can you say that Vettel was going to win in Germany? That's complete bull if you think that, and fanboyism.

 

If Seb cant be called a great, you can ****ing kick everybody off that list that has won more than 1 WDC then!

 

No it's not bull if you don't ignore the fact he was up his ass with no KERS, and it's anti-Vettel if you don't think that then?

There's a reason why Seb almost exploded when he got the message "No KERS for the remainder of the race" while he was within a second of Alonso...

The words "YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!" come to mind on how lucky Alonso got with that victory, that isn't fanboyism, that's just me telling how lucky Alonso got that day that the only person who could match him for pace needed KERS to get past because the straightline in the DRS zone was ****. And the fact Webber couldn't overtake anybody that day either speaks a few volumes how handicapped Seb was as well even with KERS!

 

And anyway Seb has immense respect to the other greats of F1 history, when he was told he equaled Fangio's win tally at Suzuka he broke down into tears right there on the spot, because he like any real F1 fan/real driver knows what kind of caliber Fangio was and the other company he is around now, he knows and respects it like they should respect him!

If that isn't a sign of a "great F1 champion" that knows and respects F1 legacy but keeps the desire to win everything, I just don't know what to believe in anymore.



Having Stewart just come out and talk **** like Pele deserves to be put into an old folks home. They talk nothing but drivel every time somebody comes around breaking all kinds of records because everybody wants to sling **** at it, even though their titles are more plastic than this current generation.

Oh I'm sure it was super hard Jackie when you Fangio, Jim Clark, Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Lauda, Ascari, Brabham etc... lapped every car up to 2nd once or twice at every race!

 

I think that Stewart article has been badly reported. Im sure its more along the lines of Vettel being young and has so much more time to either improve or dip.

At his age he could still become even better, lets see

 

Vettel will not be in the all time top 10, bookmark this statement.

He will deserve to be, but everyone always prefers to pick the old greats than the new ones, so even when he's at his peak in about 5 years time, people still won't class him as an all time great.

If he goes on to win the title this season, he should be, to accomplish everything he's done at such a young age is scary. But theres too many who think "He can't win unless he has the best car." To which i say "Monza 2008."

 

Monza 08 is similar to China 12 for me. Toro Rosso were quick that weekend. Bourdais qualified 4th.

Regardless i do see what you mean on new greats. Maybe he'll miss out in 5 years, but in 10 he'll have become one of the old greats so it balances out in the end.

 

So I guess Senna at 1985 Portugal was nothing special then since Elio De Angelis got 4th with the Lotus in qualifying in the wet as well?

So why do the fanboys jack off to it to show Senna's quality right then, yet try to belittle what Seb did at Monza?

And last time I checked Angelis wasn't a 4 times Champ car champion either... and Lotus were higher in the F1 food chain than Toro Rosso were that's for sure!



Trust me Julius any "discredit" anybody applies to Seb I can easily find a similarity to the other greats and it's never questioned!

I don't want to, but I will if I feel Seb is being unfairly belittled.


Not trying to be a fanboy it's just very easy to find a similarity to prove my point that Seb is unfairly criticised and I'm getting rather bored by the BS that's coming out of the F1 crowd that have some chip on their shoulder (not directly pointing at you though Julius)...

 

I never said it was nothing special, just that it wasn't the be all and end all defence of Seb. The fact Bourdais was 4th (and lets face it he was awful in F1) just showed that its unfair to the team to make out he did it in a bathtub on wheels. Can't really comment too much on Senna (due to my lack of being born at the time), but nostalgia probably plays a part.

Its the internet. Everyone and everything is being unfairly belittled by someone. (Alonso is lucky, Hamilton's a liabilty, Buttons conspiring with Whitmarsh, etc, etc) Endless streams of bullshit should be taken as a compliment, because it means they've failed to find a more reasonable stick to beat him with.

 

If Vettel wins a 3rd title on the trot then there is no doubt that he should be considered an all time great down the road. Yes, sometimes he has had the outright dominant car in the field, but he continues to prove more and more often, mainly from this season, that when he hasn't had the best car he can compete and overtake and still pop up at the sharp end of the grid. I've only ever disliked Vettel when he has acted like a little kid and been petulant, but the older he has become the more mature he has then also become. His racing talent can't really be questioned though, you don't set the records he has set in his time in the sport and not be a fantastic driver.

 

Then it brings up the Schuey debate (enter stage left EMSC). People generally think he was pretrty good in the Benetton against the Williams and the way he hauled the dog of a Ferrari round for a few years, but some say that he won unchallenged in dominant machinery from that point on and will point to his lack of success on his return to back that up! So should he be classed as a great or a very good driver!

My point is stats dont tell you everything, Kimi could have been a triple world champion, Alonso could have won 4 or 5 (if he had not had is issues at Mclaren) world champion, Lewis could have been a triple world champion and Vettle could already be a triple world champion! On the flip side, Kimi and Lewis could very easily have not won their WDC - so does it make them any better or worse that their stats could ahve been so different?

 

What a joker

 

People should only ever debate whether a driver is an "all-time great" or not once they have completely finished their career.

For example, Hamilton nearly became the first driver to win in his rookie season... and then followed it up by winning the next... but since then he's choked in 2010, had a disastrous (by his standards) season in 2011 and we will not talk about this season.

 

Towards the later part of the year, I agree, he may have felt the pressure and choked a bit, afterall, two retirements in 2010 were his fault, Monza and Singapore.
He had another two DNFs due to car failure, blown tyre in Spain, second from last lap, cost him 18pts, the 2nd DNF was Hungary, wasn't going to challange for the win but was in a solid 4th spot so cost him 12pts, he finished the year 16 points off Vettel..

Agree about 2011, his marbles were abit on the lose side that year, still won three times but no one was going to get close to Vettel in the RB7!

This year, the team have let him down, early in the year with botched pits stops the not enought fuel in the car for Quali in Spain that cost him a race win! And now towards the end of the year with car failure, again costing him big points.. I can't recall him doing much wrong in races, he got punted off the road by Maldonado and taken out by Grosjean, thats about it..

Also agree that "Best driver..." "Top 20 driver..." lists should only consist of drivers no longer racing
You could have a Top 10 current drivers list and that would obviously include the likes of Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi...

 

Greats that need to be struck off by JYS logic that you cannot be called a great with superior equipment:

1950: Farina // Alfa Romeo, a car in a league of it's own!
1951: Fangio // Alfa Romeo, still the best car!
1952: Ascari // Ferrari, the best car by miles!
1953: Ascari // Ferrari, the best car again!
1954: Fangio // Maserati then the Untouchable Mercedes with number 1 status.
1955: Fangio // Mercedes again untouchable with Moss.
1956: Fangio // Ferrari, with Mercedes gone they were the best.
1957: Fangio // Maserati, best car they made to date Ferrari were lacking.
1959: Brabham // Cooper cars, dominated the WCC.
1960: Brabham // Cooper again, Bruce McLaren ended 2nd in the season, dominant car.
1961: P.Hill // Ferrari had season under control, Von Trips got 2nd in the WDC.
1963: Clark // Untouchable Lotus' with Chapman crushed everybody!
1965: Clark // Same as 1963, Lotus, Chapman crushed everybody.
1966: Brabham // Best car of the year easily, won the WCC by good margin.
1967: Hulme // Brabham car again, 1-2 in the entire season.
1968: G.Hill // Lotus, also had no Jim Clark to challenge him within team as he was dead.
1969: Stewart // Matra (Ken Tyrrell), Elite Ford engines, dominated the season.
1970: J.Rindt // Had such a stupidly good car that within the last 4 races they couldn't beat his points total after he died.
1971: Stewart // Ken Tyrrel and Ford engines again! Cevert in his 2nd season of F1 gets 3rd.
1972: Fittipaldi // Lotus and dominated the season.
1973: Stewart // Ken Tyrrel strikes again with those Ford engines and far more reliable then the Lotus'.
1975: Lauda // Ferrari had the best car this season and next, injury stops Lauda winning again.
1977: Lauda // Ferrari again with the best car, win WCC by hefty margin.
1978: Andretti // Lotus come back with a bang 1-2 in the WDC, almost double the points of Ferrari.
1979: Scheckter // Ferrari dominates, 1-2 in the WDC.
1980: A.Jones // Williams 1-3 in the season, double points of 2nd WCC.
1984: Lauda // Dominant McLaren, Prost 2nd in WDC.
1985: Prost // McLaren the best car, Lauda just sucked.
1987: Piquet // Unbeatable Williams, had the Honda engines and finished 1-2 in the WDC's
1988: Senna // Possible the most dominated season of all time by one team of one design of car.
1989: Prost // Same as last year, dominated in superior equipment.
1990: Senna // Had the best car again easily compared to Ferrari who had Prost and Mansell.
1991: Senna // Again the best car.
1992: Mansell // History shows what he had packing to dominate that season by a country mile, Newey
1993: Prost // Same as Mansell, Newey design.
1994: Schumacher // Rumoured illegal traction control, Rory Byrne design.
1995: Schumacher // Dominated the season, Rory Byrne design.
1996: D.Hill // Him and Villeneuve dominate the season with Williams, 1-2 in the WDC, over double the WCC points to Ferrari, Newey
1997: Villeneuve // Official result of a 1-2 WDC for Williams, unofficial it was a 1-3.
1998: Haikkinen // Newey car, mercedes engines 12/16 PP's 1-3 in WDC.
2001: Schumacher // Dominated season, Rory Byrne design, 1-3 in WDC.
2002: Schumacher // Nobody stood a chance, 1-2 in WDC, almost had triple the points of Montoya in 3rd! Rory Byrne design.
2004: Schumacher // Same as 2002, had double of the points to 3rd, 1-2 in WDC's, Rory Byrne design.
2005: Alonso // Mass dampers, Michelin Tyres, illegal launch control, very reliable compared with the McLaren.
2006: Alonso // Mass dampers again but better, dominated early part of the season, eventually gets banned, Schumacher catches.
2009: Button // DDD for half a season longer than his nearest rival at the end of the season.
2010: Vettel // Flexi wings, Newey design, dominated qualifying 1-3 in WDC standings.
2011: Vettel // EBD, newey design, dominated the season with single driver.


And by looking at all this with JYS in mind, I can gather Nelson Piquet Snr is actually the greatest driver of all time since he won 2 WDC's not having the best equipment.


ALL HAIL PIQUET!!!!!

 

Well, that's one way of getting your point across.

 

Keke Rosberg is a legend

 

I'm really glad that Silver isn't a Hamilton fan... Imagine the flack we'd get for it.

 

So this is the list of all drivers that have won the WDC without the best car:

Hawthorn (Ferrari), G.Hill, Surtees (Ferrari), Fitipaldi (McLaren), Hunt (Lauda injured), Piquet x2, Rosberg (Others got hurt or killed), Prost (McLaren), Haikkinen (Schumacher injured), Schumacher x2 (All Rory Byrne cars), Raikkonen (Ferrari), Lewis (Alonso, Button, Seb, Webber in slow cars)


So by my logic added with JYS "logic" with greatest drivers of all time:

1st: Piquet
2nd: G.Hill
3rd: Kimi
4th: Hawthorn
5th: Prost
6th: Surtees
7th: Fittipaldi
8th: Schumacher
9th: Lewis
10th: Haikkenen
11th: Hunt
12th: Rosberg