Bale

[NSIS]

Yeah - thuggery and malicious tackles are bad too. And maybe on a case-for-case basis an individual act of violence or an individual leg-breaking tackle is worse than any individual act of diving. But as something that is undermining the game as a whole in a really pernicious way I think that diving is the greater problem. It is hugely on the increase (whilst physical violence is on the decrease) and has a really bad effect on the game as a whole. Plus it makes referees' jobs so much more difficult when most of the players on the pitch are happy to go down when they expect contact. And thirdly the culture of stimulation spread beyond diving. Anyone remember Ibrahimovic (?) about ten years ago falling to the ground when someone touched his face? And he was mocked and villified for it? well that happened this summer in a game and all the pundits said was "You can't raise your hand there - he had to go" and were sympathetic with the guy rolling around like he had no choice!

But anyway - even if you don't think that diving is the number one problem with professional football games you've got to agree that it's one of the big problems haven't you? And what's more, unlike many of the other problems it has a simple solution - long bans as soon as video evidence proves a clear dive.

Just cos you can't deal with what you think is the number one problem does not mean to say that you should not deal with one that is slightly lower down the list.

And as for Alwaysright's point about replicating the manouvre "and see if you don't fall": well yeah - of course. It's called diving. It's a thing you do with your body to make it so you fall over. And as for the motorcycle analogy...Er I just don't swallow it.

Change the shirt that Bale is wearing into one with red torso and white sleeves and I bet most of those defending Bale now would not be bending over backwards justifying his every tiny movement in that dive. Or why he moved which leg when and what might have been going through his mind. And how no-one else can possibly know what Bale was thinking. They'd be thinking one very simple, true thought and there would be no doubt in their minds: dive.

No, I can't defend deliberate diving, or simulation, as they now call it. Yes, it's something that needs to be dealt with now before it becomes endemic in the game, as it has done here in Spain.
However, I would still maintain that, if we are talking about priorities for the ruling bodies to deal with, then the malicious thuggery of people like Charlie Adam should receive the highest possible penalty. In Rugby, you would certainly be banned for months for anything so malicious against another player. Some have been banned for years.

 

[SpursDisciple]

I was watching our new Belgian defender (I'll get used to that name..one day!).Seems like we've got two Bales running down the left wing sometimes.
Also,sometimes when you hit the turf,it can shake you up a bit and you have to lay there for a bit to get yourself together.
Ask Ronaldo.He hit the turf after trying a flash scissor kick,missing the ball and possibly dislocating his shoulder.

Jan?

 

[HamburgSpur]

For me it was a dive all day long, think Lenny has pretty much summed it up perfectly so won't re-iterate his points.

I just wonder what Bale would have done had the direction of play been towards goal / more beneficial to Spurs and not directly into touch. Would he have "avoided contact" by going to ground? I doubt it; I bet he would have bounded past the oncoming keeper and we would all be marvelling at how fast / skillfull he is, or at least tried.

 

[Ghoddle10]

I don't think diving is anywhere near as bad as the violent play that has pushed Bale into his mind set. If players didn't keep chopping him down, then I doubt he'd so prone to taking evasive action. It was the same with Ginola, instead of concentrating on the thuggery he was being subjected to, which was by far the worse crime, people kept talking about his diving.

It's the thugs and bully boys that are the main villains in the game, not the divers.

On the particular incident, Bale does dive and deserves a yellow, but I don't blame him for getting out of the way, he's got a career to preserve and boy do we need him.

If occasionally that warrants a yellow, fine then card him. But let's see far more yellows and reds for the people cynically fouling him and thus cheating by gaining an unfair advantage for their team, and putting another player's career in jeopardy.

Most/all bad tackles are forms of cheating and should be condemned as such.

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Sorry that was so long. But people trying to somehow excuse/explain that dive really need to look at themselves. Just cos professional football is a lying world of snakes and greed doesn't mean that us normal people should descend to their level. Rather, we should slate these behaviours loudly and in public as often as possible.

Oh don't be so sanctimonious. We both agree that Bale was expecting a challenge coming in, I think he's trying to protect himself as the challenge, if going for the ball would be exactly where his then standing leg is. You think he's going down trying to win a freekick 35 yards out on the wing.

I'm not saying he didn't appeal so didn't dive. I'm saying that he went down, didn't appeal, didn't stick a leg out for contact and didn't fake injury. That's reason enough for some level of doubt in the theory he dived.

Then there's the patronising nonsense questioning whether we have a clue what we're talking about. Yes I have played football and I have run before, for the record. So you want his standing leg to stay there and keep him on his feet? If Guzan had tried to kick the ball as it looked like he would do, you get two players two players with a lot of momentum trying to force his leg in different directions. That's how you break bones. Having both legs off the ground isn't uncommon when you're running at full speed, even when playing the ball. Ironic since you've questioned whether anyone else has run or played football before yet can't understand why Bale has taken a touch with both feet in the air, or is competing for a 50/50 ball up until it looks like he'll be kicked.

Here's Bale shamelessly cheating against Inter Milan:

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And again....

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Again...

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It's sickening that he's been allowed to strike the ball 3 times(in one run) without a foot on the ground. Clearly trying to dive, send him off!

Here's the video for reference incase you can't tell whether his foot's in the air.

 

[HamburgSpur]

If Bale had got up quicker and explained himself, if it was a 'jump out of the way' action, it would have been less of an incident. Continuing to lay prostrate for some amount of seconds did not help at all, that made it look like he may have been waiting for a ref decision. A statement after the game to this effect again may have helped diffuse it. That fact is neither happened, so it looks poor on Bale's part imo.

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[lennypops]

Oh don't be so sanctimonious. We both agree that Bale was expecting a challenge coming in, I think he's trying to protect himself as the challenge, if going for the ball would be exactly where his then standing leg is. You think he's going down trying to win a freekick 35 yards out on the wing.

I'm not saying he didn't appeal so didn't dive. I'm saying that he went down, didn't appeal, didn't stick a leg out for contact and didn't fake injury. That's reason enough for some level of doubt in the theory he dived.

Then there's the patronising nonsense questioning whether we have a clue what we're talking about. Yes I have played football and I have run before, for the record. So you want his standing leg to stay there and keep him on his feet? If Guzan had tried to kick the ball as it looked like he would do, you get two players two players with a lot of momentum trying to force his leg in different directions. That's how you break bones. Having both legs off the ground isn't uncommon when you're running at full speed, even when playing the ball. Ironic since you've questioned whether anyone else has run or played football before yet can't understand why Bale has taken a touch with both feet in the air, or is competing for a 50/50 ball up until it looks like he'll be kicked.

Here's Bale shamelessly cheating against Inter Milan:

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And again....

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Again...

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It's sickening that he's been allowed to strike the ball 3 times(in one run) without a foot on the ground. Clearly trying to dive, send him off!

Here's the video for reference incase you can't tell whether his foot's in the air.

Yeah - OK. I believe the actual definition of running includes having both feet off the ground. So then, if people are using both of his feet being off the ground as the reason that he fell in the way he did I presume that they understand that having both feet off the ground happens every time someone runs? The particular reason he had his feet and his legs in the way he did for that particular event with Guzan is cos he was expecting contact and wanted to go down as if this contact knocked him off his feet. Because he was cheating. Because professional footballers cheat as a matter of course.

So if you were playing football you'd go down like that would you? If you have a physical job you'd go down like that to protect your abuility to earn money, would you? And you'd be absolutely fine with someone going down like that as you ran towards them during a game? You wouldn't think that the person doing that was a massive tosser? Interesting.

And no I do not think it is sanctimonious to expect/demand a higher level of honesty among the general public to what you get in professional football. I've played football with people I'd consider complete arseholes probably. But even they were not continually hassling the ref, trying to trick him, rolling around when they've fallen over...and could you imagine if a normal person fell to the floor clutching their face if someone gently touched them on the head? Me neither.

If you don't think it's a dive then I don't know what to say. Other than ask anyone who isn't a Spurs fan. Anyone.

 

[totsfan]

ask anyone who is'nt a Spurs fan and the answer you would get is,the whole team dive.

 

[lennypops]

This debate is making me think of that Magritte painting "Ceci n'est pas une pipe":

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Only this one is called "C'est ne pas Une dive":

[video]http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/bale-dive.gif[/video]

Damn - can't work out (quickly) how to post a gif. But just look at that gif in the link above. And keep repeating to yourself "That is not a dive" "That is not a dive". It's sort of mesmerising. Like an Orwellian thought-control tool.

 

[lennypops]

A few short years ago I remember actually feeling like I could honestly argue to my gooner mates that Spurs players don't dive. In fact at the time I remember saying that Zokora tried one on once and everyone was a bit embarrassed. I think Jol even said something about it.

I quite liked that feeling at the time. Bale's the biggest diver the clubs had for a very long time. Maybe ever. And much as I love him as a player I just hate to see the diving.

 

[O.Spurcat]

A few short years ago I remember actually feeling like I could honestly argue to my gooner mates that Spurs players don't dive. In fact at the time I remember saying that Zokora tried one on once and everyone was a bit embarrassed. I think Jol even said something about it.

I quite liked that feeling at the time. Bale's the biggest diver the clubs had for a very long time. Maybe ever. And much as I love him as a player I just hate to see the diving.

I remember that one, it was against Pompey at the Lane and Chris Foy booked Zokora.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I remember that one, it was against Pompey at the Lane and Chris Foy booked Zokora.

He won a penalty - the MOTD boys were up in arms about it...which they weren't a few weeks earlier when Gerrard blatantly dived to salvage a point at Bramall Lane.

 

[lennypops]

[video=youtube;Fmxm0ArnCLg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmxm0ArnCLg[/video]

Seems like Zokora must have been protecting himself, what with Mendes' leg looming menacingly. Anyone would do the same.

Funny how I don't remember it being given either. Maybe he did another one that wasn't given or where he got booked?

Just listened to a Jol interview at the time. He said that Zokora told him he'd lost his balance and that he had to believe him. And added that (re diving) "We don't want to see that sort of thing in England". I'm sure I remember reading something at the time about Jol giving him a bollocking over a dive. Perhaps it was someone's wishful thinking.

 

[Ghoddle10]

I'd be far more worried if we had cheats who went around breaking people's legs and kicking people up in the air.

Bale's diving is but a minor problem compared to main problem of cynical, cheating, nasty fouling, some of which Bale has suffered on a personal level.

I think Bale is a fantastic player, and if, like Ginola before him, feels he has to 'go down easily' to preserve his career I back him all the way. It's the various defenders who are constantly fouling him who **** me right off.

 

[NSIS]

I'd be far more worried if we had cheats who went around breaking people's legs and kicking people up in the air.

Bale's diving is but a minor problem compared to main problem of cynical, cheating, nasty fouling, some of whic Bale has suffered on a personal level.

Blimey!! We actually agree on something!..

 

[No Kane No Gain]

Yeah - OK. I believe the actual definition of running includes having both feet off the ground. So then, if people are using both of his feet being off the ground as the reason that he fell in the way he did I presume that they understand that having both feet off the ground happens every time someone runs? The particular reason he had his feet and his legs in the way he did for that particular event with Guzan is cos he was expecting contact and wanted to go down as if this contact knocked him off his feet. Because he was cheating. Because professional footballers cheat as a matter of course.

So if you were playing football you'd go down like that would you? If you have a physical job you'd go down like that to protect your abuility to earn money, would you? And you'd be absolutely fine with someone going down like that as you ran towards them during a game? You wouldn't think that the person doing that was a massive tosser? Interesting.

And no I do not think it is sanctimonious to expect/demand a higher level of honesty among the general public to what you get in professional football. I've played football with people I'd consider complete arseholes probably. But even they were not continually hassling the ref, trying to trick him, rolling around when they've fallen over...and could you imagine if a normal person fell to the floor clutching their face if someone gently touched them on the head? Me neither.

If you don't think it's a dive then I don't know what to say. Other than ask anyone who isn't a Spurs fan. Anyone.

Believe it or not, we don't disagree as much as you think. The difference is I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the fairly significant doubt but you've decided to assume the worst of Bale.

 

[lennypops]

Believe it or not, we don't disagree as much as you think. The difference is I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the fairly significant doubt but you've decided to assume the worst of Bale.

I understand that, having had two serious injuries (at least) so early on in his career he'll flinch and go down more than most. But when that goes that little bit further into out-and-out diving (which we've seen him do before this weekend too) I can't condone it.

 

[bigsmithy9]

Running with both feet off the ground.Isn't that called flying?

 

[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]

After watching a slo-mo replay I don't believe it was a dive

Bale is running at great speed towards the ball and can see the linesman to the right and Guzan coming towards him to the left

It would require immense stupidity to dive with no contact in front of an official who has a clear view

 

[Boss]

It would require immense stupidity

Bale is a footballer.