I sort of agree with everyone (this is a comfy fence) Under this system/ style of play call it what you will our back four need to take the ball out more. To do so they need to be given options. Allen on his own, predictable. As some have said maybe it won't work against stoke but if you pull your team back against one drilled to sit in their own 18 you test their discipline & plan. By sitting in among them you prove their coach & training right & do what they've been training for all week. Pull players deeper randomly to collect the ball what's the worst that would happen..nothing? Still a 0-0 draw. I don't think many teams are THAT disciplined. I disagree with the "only Allen" should make himself available comment all the midfielders should: a static player is a predictable player. Having all our AM/forwards in their last 30 constantly waiting allows an organised team to cover and then pressurise our back 4 & keeper & Allen when they try to bring it out. If we are playing this style our team has to be fluid. You watch Messi et al drop very deep at times to pick up the ball etc, it pushes & pulls even the most organised team. On this I don't blame Gerrard unless I'm told he's ignoring instructions. What I DO blame Gerrard on is lack of invention which a player of his skill & experience should have bags of. His 5 yard drive with forty yard ping is as predictable as Downings run & pass back. It's success to failure rate is very imbalanced. Add to this(for whatever reason ) not coming back to collect the ball & his contribution to unlocking the opposition is very limited. This has nothing to do with his age automatically but I think it's a factor. He needs to start playing the style & if it doesn't work it's not his fault. There's nothing wrong with the Hollywood as an option. Just like the long ball is an option that makes us unpredictable, BR when explaining his ideas said exactly that. Sahin had an off game, but he gets a new boy by ball....for now. BR's fault for not recognising it & doing something about it. Agree on the kids opinions, Stamina comes in your twenties, BR has to recognise that or hire a performance team that does. The old scoring chest nut. If we are playing this style we have to be patient as an entire team & yes that means lots & lots of times where you get to the striker & then pass it all the way back. Impatience; be that Gerrard's Hollywood or Suarez attempting a world record human slalom (as spectacular as they are when they work); ifs its guaranteed that's what they're going to do everytime it's easy to defend. How many times have we seen Suarez take two players beautifully pass is on but he goes for one more twist. Like Gerrard he has to play the style & if the people he passes to don't score? it's not his fault. This is the bit that will take time to either instil in the attacking players we have or replace them with ones that can play the team game. On Mandy? I remember 3-5 games where he was the bull. I remember a hell of a lot more where at the slightest touch he was sat on his arse waving at the ref. this romantic notion that "the monster" is the guy who would always have turned up for us every week is a silly one to beat the manager with. We all agree it was an error to let him go but to make believe brilliant performances from a striker that hardly ever showed that level & who we don't have anyway is pointless. Guys I've written this season off, did at the start of the season as soon as I heard what was planned (never mind the transfer debacle) but I'm getting sick of this but x didn't get time so why should BR, that's become all too predictable too.
I think Stoke are becoming our Kryptonite. Much like Bolton with Arsenal. I feel that training centres on how Stoke are big and physical and dirty and defend in numbers, and I think we are mentally in the wrong place for this game, when we play it. I think this was what was wrong with Sahin and Srterling. I think they are apprehensive from the start. Luckily Sterling started getting over it a bit, but still was more concerned with being scythed down, than concentrating on the ball, and that is why he left it behind so much. If we just played out game, it wouldn't be a problem. Sure we would get fouled a fair bit, but they get booked and sent off if they keep it up. Obviously Pulis the **** had words at half time, as they all but stopped kicking chunks, so it was them that was there for the taking, apart from the 9 man defence they then threw up. Liverpool player need to stop being scared of getting tackled. It was not as if it was two footed studs up stuff, they just kept getting tripped. there was never anything from Stoke that would result in injury, other than the odd bruise. We need to man up and play our game. They got to us, and Rodger's needs to make sure that next time, we are not timid before they even kick a ball. Stoke are a 70's throw-back team, we should be out-passing them into oblivion, and not running scared of their "physical" game They are hardly Leeds!
I think Sterling and Suso showed fight and a lot of character. Constantly getting bullied but always fought back. The Academy have not only developed the players tactically and technically, but they have given them some bite and steel.
1. my comment was saying only allen did make himself avaialbe. i'd want one more of sahin/ gerrard to do more to do so. it could have been instructions but in gerrard's case (as he was deeper first half) i thought it was lazyness. 2. after that mandy... well the thing is like it or not rodgers signed off on him going without a replacement lined up and then want mad.. i think us fans are the ones getting jipped and the owners, manager and ayre need to get the moeny out and look after us.
I agree... sterling has real pace, he should have been knocking it well past guys and running them but they were jsut cutting in fornt and laughing at him. he showed very little abiltiy to win a sneaky free here and there by just making chumps of these big brusiers. suarez shwoed platy of times how to do it. suso was better imo as he could hold it and get his pass away but i dunno... he looked tired too. a bit of epxereince and we'd have won it.. a bit of composure form suarez and we'd have won it... a bit of being awake from gerrard and perhaps we would have made a few more chances. we made it easy for them to get thier point, they handed us our point
This is what surprised me about Sahin - he didn't have that air of authority about him against Stoke. We saw how deep he comes against WBA and Norwich. Bad day in the office. Hopefulyl we will be at his best against Reading!
In fairness Frank any reference to Kenny not getting time isn't a suggestion that BR shouldn't its a reference to the fact that given FSGs record of firing people that he may well not be given the time he needs. As for Carroll I agree that he wouldn't be as useful every week as he probably would have been yesterday but shouldn't every squad have a variety of options? BR simply can't expect every team we face to play in a way that suits us (Norwich) and must find a way, while he develops the whole squad, to still get results even if it means a bit of compromise.
I reread properly Billy, just used to defending that line too often. Apologies. Yip, I agree that if he'd been there he was an alternative. But....knowing the players we have, what do you think would have been the outcome of Carroll on the field? I hate to say it but I think it would have been Hoof ball that stoke would have lapped up. I honestly think its because the 11 players on our pitch are still not adopting the style/strategy FULLY that's causing us most of the problems. When BR talks about retaining possession I believe he means exactly the example I gave. Suarez gets the ball, beats his man but in doing so has made too much of an angle for a high success rate shot. Ideally he should look to pass back & build again. We know he can on his day beat the 3rd man or score from incredible angles but blazed over the bar or beaten by that third defenders 4 out of the 5 times gives away possession & guarantees no goal. Same with any player. It means some pretty boring football at times. There's nothing wrong with the spectacular it should be encouraged but it shouldn't be automatic plan b for every player frustrated that this attack isn't working, recycle & try again. Unpredictability in movement & change of pace in around percentage possession football. The question might now be do we have players intelligent, patient & calm enough to play this way successfully? I think we need a few more senior ones. But it means swallowing the crap while its adopted. I just don't know. Of BR alters his goal just because one or two of the existing squad can't hack it do we confuse the rest just to accommodate them until we can get rid?
This is the concern. Personally - I don't think Henderson and Shelvey are ready for regular 1st team action. Same applies to Gerrard, whilst Skrtel looks alien to this new style and is merely getting by. Allen, Lucas and Sahin would be my midfield trio. And I would use Suso in the middle rather than on the wing.
I agree that playing hoof ball against a team like Stoke would never be the answer that goes without saying but as I was discussing with JS before Gerrard swung in 7 or 8 balls in behind the centre halfs yesterday that were made for a good header of the ball to get on to. Now obviously after the second or third one seeing no one get anywhere near them you had to just shake your head at the fact that he kept playing them in BUT it does also beg the question as to what would have happened had we had a Mandy "type" player around to stick them in. They were actually excellent balls...just totally inadequate for this team. As for patience against a team like Stoke that's all well and good but they won't chase the ball around like lunatics/headless chickens as some teams will because they simply don't have to do it especially away from home. They sit back soak up anything in the air and by pure numbers they will limit anything on the ground. As well as we played first half it was our inability to get a goal before half time which hurt us most because they never ever had to come at us. Maybe sometimes as a team you can be too patient. To me its not about BR altering his goal its about him accepting that to get there he has to be a bit more flexible. Did he really expect to come in and instill it straight away? We all knew it wouldn't happen overnight right? I want him to be a success as we all do but you know as well as I do that if this run of results continues it will all be in vain because patience isn't something that those at the top know much about.
Sorry Mito my grammar was awful: we were agreeing on the Allen point. I just wasn't going to criticise the other two in case they were following instructions in which case it's BR handicapping his own style. Your point is still fact whoever is at fault. Yes: transition can only cover disjointed play or individual errors it can't continue to justify that this team doesn't score enough goals to win games & points. We've been waiting for the forwards/AM's (a variety of them) to "click" for 2 years. It needs the right additions not tweaking.ill not repeat why I think our current lot aren't making the most of the possession it's up there already. I do think a lot of the jigsaw is present. But bar wishes coming true we can only hope the "click" comes enough this year to pick up enough points to get those additions & remove those that can't play this style of football. The alternative is to say this style doesn't work & BR should go. My personal opinion is that our players have had year after year of "it's not your fault; it's the manager" It's not good for moral or long term success. Nothing I've seen from BR suggests we'll be a team in terminal decline, just a continuation of frustrating points dropped & mid table until he get these youngsters up to senior level permanently, is given funds to add the right players to speed the process up or We're All proven Wrong and it all just simply clicks this year. We'll get one "right" player a year from these owners, half of these youngsters will fail for one reason or another so I believe 3 more years of inching and crawling upwards improvement wise. Still wont stop me shouting FFS at the team between then & now.
Biggest problems I can see in this DF are a) we need some quality, experienced players who are excellent within this sort of system and FSG seem determined not to buy anyone of "experience" and b) how long can we keep the likes of Agger, Lucas and Suarez who we know can fit into it? It could end up as a serious catch 22 situation (yet again).
