I have a question for fans who think players don't show enough loyalty. Many people on this board, including myself, want to get rid of Chamack or others Arshavin, Ramsey, Denilson, Bendtner. Now whether or not these players would/have said it what if they came out and said they love Arsenal and want to finish there careers here. They are willing to sign a binding 10 year contract. Would that change any of your minds. I don't think so? Why! because we don't think they are good enough. Loyalty in football is a fallacy. Why do you think Arsenal stuck with Diaby,Rosicky and RVP when they had so many injury problems because they are talented players. Ability dictates loyalty and even then someone bid £10mn for Rosicky last summer you would have said we would be crazy not to sell whether we wanted to stay or not would be irregardless. Or the fact Arsenal accepted a nominal fee from Middelsbourgh (I think) for Bergkamp in 03 or 04 he said no. Where was the clubs loyalty then. Be honest are loyalty is to the best players in our team and most of us don't care what happens to the players we don't rate. So I see no difference with what RVP or Nasri did they moved because the abilities of clubs the moved to was better. Something every club does to players. So lets get a grip and move on. Players like Adams, Scholes, Maldini are rare, but the real test would have been if they weren't winning and bigger clubs came for them. So honestly would people stop spouting this loyalty bollocks and get on with it. Also to the thread about RVP getting injured is stupid and uncalled for.
I and many others I know have supported Arsenal for over 30 years through the good times and the bad times. The only non-loyal supporters I know of include people like my brother in law who flip-flops his support between Manchester United and Chelsea depending upon who wins something- and yes, he lives in Surrey.
I don't mean fans loyalty to the club. I meant the loyalty to our players or the loyalty a club displays to players and yes a players loyalty to a club. I am saying that isn't really there. So to all the fans who think RVP, Nasri showed no loyalty (lack of class - yes!) just look back on the players those same people have asked to sell so many players because they weren't good enough (whether the player wants to leave) no real accusations of lack of loyalty to Vela, Squillachi and others who have left us - You know why? becuase they weren't good enough. How is that different to RVP or Nasri thinking the same of Arsenal. Lot of people here who said we should sell RVP and Diaby when they were going through their injury plagued periods - Many now saying where is there loyalty. Loyalty is not a matter of convenience it is all or none so we need to grow up and move on.
The right of every football fan extends to his/her ability to be able to criticise non-performing players (as they see it) of the team they support. This then creates the opportunity for forums such as these to extend debate further. During such debates an element of tribal behaviour emerges (see the disatisfaction witrh Ramsey, Denilson and Arshavin for examples). Whether or not this is being 'disloyal' to players is an interesting question. I think we all suffer from the frustrations that lack of success can engineer -but if any of those players scored the goal that won us the champions league, for example,then they would be greeted and treated as heroes. I dont think that is disloyalty, just the fickle nature of passionate football fans.
Your last comment I feel proves my point we might hate a player or be desperate to see the back of him but if he comes in and scores and wins a big game he is a hero. You can call it fickle if you like but then that is the worse you can accuse RVP of. It is only because he was our best player that we question his loyalty if he leaves but not if a bit part player leaves us. That is why loyalty is directly in proportion to Ability. If someone like Denilson was having similar Injury problems the club would have got shot of him ages ago with not a peep from fans. But with RVP it is Disloyalty. "During such debates an element of tribal behaviour emerges (see the disatisfaction witrh Ramsey, Denilson and Arshavin for examples). Whether or not this is being 'disloyal' to players is an interesting question" Dissatisfaction is fine we all suffer from it and feel free to critacise a player and demand he be sold. But then you can't criticise RVP for being dissatisfied and wanting to leave. Whatever you want to call it if we can display it to players why can't players do it to the club.
I dont think any players are completely loyal to one club but there are some things in football you just don't do and leaving a club you've been at a long time to go to a rival is one of them
Perhaps the answer to this may lay in the fact that we pay to watch our team- our choice - and therefore contribute to the massively over inflated wages of these top players. Many of us may therefore feel that the players are under some obligation to at least try to display loyalty. When, for example, RVP goes back on what he said about staying at Arsenal and three months later joins a rival for more money, it does feel like the guy is sticking up two fingers and sniggering at us. I did feel that about him and Nasri but less so about Fabregas - but I dont blame anyone for wanting to leave if they feel it is right for them. However, I also dont feel bad about letting them know how I feel on a saturday/sunday afternoon or wednesday evening. If that is being disloyal or hypocritical then so be it - as I said, I paid my money and I take my choice. Good debate.
In order for a player to be loyal to a club, the club has to be loyal in return. That it was what makes loyalty so rare nowadays in football. If a player is brought up through a teams youth system, but can be playing at a higher level and the club can make a large profit off that player they'll. Take Andy Carroll for example, he apparently didn't want to leave Newcastle, but Newcastle was willing to sell for the amount Liverpool was paying. Scholes and Giggs didn't leave because everyone knew United wouldn't sell. It's much easier to appear loyal when the club you're playing for doesn't have a reason to move you on.
I think there's a thin line between loyalty and commitment. Loyalty conjures up an idea of players talking about how much they love their clubs, and are proud to play for them. Commitment is simply a player honouring his contract, until it's severed by his employer. For me RVP was disloyal to Arsenal, because he was Captain and spoke about how much he loved playing for Arsenal, how he only wanted to win trophies with Arsenal, how it would be meaningless to win with another club and how proud he was to captain our great club. These were his words, in our programme notes. And a few months after writing them, he was angling for a move to Utd.
If players have to be loyal then why are managers/chairmen/owners etc exempt? The aim in any career is to reach the top and stay there
This I agree with. Players can't be disloyal for leaving but there are ways to go about it, what RVP did damaged the image of the club and also Wenger
A interesting thread with some good view points. Its strange, we often associate loyalty with the players first, but as pointed out, the club plays a big part to. But as a Saints fan, recently we've experienced a third party in this relationship.....the fans. With successive promotions we seem to have outgrown some players too quickly. From a year of over achieving, we now have a section of people looking for these loyal, hard working, promotion achieving players to be replaced by some expensive foreign talent. Sometimes that works, I think, I don't really know, I've only ever supported the Saints & they haven't been promoted or spent a lot of money other than the last two years so my frame of reference is a bit shabby. So, seeing these guys put in all the effort, then suddenly find themselves not playing any part & being shipped out has been a shock to me, but to some, well they've been waiting for these replacements since we beat Coventry on the last day of the season. So now, when I read about loyalty, I don't start getting upset about players looking for pastures new, I concentrate on the ones who are happy with their progression, & just hope the club & my fellow fans want them to stay around, for a little while longer.
I agree that RVP showed no class in the way he performed his transfer just that issue of people screaming disloyalty at him that riled me. The commitment side I agree but then it goes back to the issue of a club selling a player in contract who may not necessarily want to leave (on top of which the club gets compensated for the selling) surely if that is true then a club should have no issues with a player running down a contract afterall if he has to honour it so does the club. Exactly! Wow you have summed up my point better than me I never saw it from a newly promoted clubs perspective but that is a brilliant point. Also would like to add that I am not condoning players behaviour or expecting them to change (or even asking them too) just wanted people to see there is another side to this story.
