FFS, None of this ****e has anything to do with the merits or other wise of FFP! Yes United have a huge commercial income. Yes United have huge debts in comparison to other English clubs. Yes LFC have grown their commercial income and are no longer debt ridden. Yes the City/Chelsea model is probably unsustainable as both a business model and in terms of FFP. Can we at least agree that? Now let's get back to discussing IF FFP is the right way to go - please!
Jeez, it's like talking to a brick wall! I'll try it again - in 2010 we paid £70 million in interest, in 2011 we paid £43 million. That's public knowledge, as proven by pretty much every website to have covered our official 2011 annual report (which is a legal and audited document). If you want to wait until October 2013 to see what the current levels of interest are, be my guest The PIKs are not relevant to the club. Because they were paid off in November 2010. It's really not a complicated concept to understand, please try harder... Ah, here we go with the ad hominems. Last refuge of the defeated If you actually read the article I posted: "The interest charge is spread evenly over each quarter even though bond interest is paid twice a year in February and August." So the interest for the 11/12 financial year has all been paid - in August 2011 and February 2012. The £29 million is three quarters of that, hence the annual interest payment for the 11/12 financial year was just under £39 million. Capiche?
Lol Dave, did you really think this thread was ever about FFP? It's clearly all about Whonext and KPR trying to use FFP as an excuse to obsess and spit some bile about Utd! If you want to actually debate the merits of FFP for the PL, then I recommend you start a new thread, somewhere Whonext and KPR will never find it. I would suggest the Everton board, but we all know how that will end up
That's not my problem Dave. I've discussed FFP with you various times and ALWAYS listen to your points. However I've spent the last 3 days trying to explain some very basic accounting concepts which some of your fellow fans simply refuse to accept. ( Your silence on some of the points with KPR speaks volumes to be honest ) Everything you said above is correct so yes I agree I personally think the FFP rules will work to a degree but maybe not to the degree some are hoping for
I read the statement you made which said "The first nine months of this year" I pointed out that we have only just entered the ninth month which made your post incorrect - Ignore that if you will though Swarbs, you normally avoit the truth! Also, the interest being levied on the debt of Manchester United is approximately 15.5%, now 15.5% of £459million is £71.1 million - Go read the artickes fellas, you may learn something about the club 'you love'
Well yeah, but they could atelast harp on about "istoree" or something that is football related, or the fact they won 2 more European Cups than you or anything other than something debt related for gods sake, they come across as total pussies!! Ohhh you're in debt! WTF!? Its not like Man Utd as a club or their fans could do anything about the debt anyway, it was something the Glazers exploited in UK sales law that allowed them to take over the club. WTF does it have to do with football?!
Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear. Do you know what a financial year is? Then you will know that all football clubs must, according to FA regs, have a financial year that runs from July to June. So the figures for the 2012 financial year run from 1st July 2011 to 30th June 2012. It's very complicated I know, I recommend you read the following book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Accounting-...6006/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347012280&sr=8-1 As for the interest on the debt: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8475317.stm "The bond was sold in two tranches, one of £250m with a coupon rate - or interest rate - to bond holders of 8.75%, and another tranche of $425m with a coupon rate of 8.375%." Would you care to hazard a guess at what approximately 8.5% of £459 million is? I'll give you a clue, it's the number in the final line of post 322
The Glazers purchased $500million dollars worth of bonds, now excuse me but this doesn't really get rid of the debt it simply moves it - But eh ho, that isn't connected to the club so that's alright! Just the same as RA at Cheslea and SM at City. It's their money so it doesn't matter! Course it ****in matters, the Glazers own United through the Red venture bollocks so the debt is saddled to the club. If the G;azers go tits up (Which is very possible) the club is up **** creek because the owners don't have the money. We had exactly the same problem with the previous owners at Anfield. They couldn't afford the repayments and so were forced by RBS into a sale of the club as a going concern - IT is exactly the same and to sit in denial isn't going to change that. Again, the whole point of this thread, and let's not confuse me with you because I posted this thread on the LFC board to be discussed among the LFC fans. You are the ones constantly sittong in the sidelines waiting to pipe in with your bullshit stories about how we are obsessed with all things United! It was a story in the national press that stemmed from a campaign started by your club. The facts have laid before you and all you can do is attack because you don't have ability to substantiate your arguements, that you started on this thread...****ing clowns seriously! I banking terms you are paying 15.5% interest on debts accrued by the current owners!
This is getting quite tiresome now. The Glazers did not purchase bonds. The bonds were issued by Man Utd. They are the clubs debt and the club is repaying them. No one has denied Utd have debt so I'm not sure why you are still banging this pointless drum. If the Glazers go tits up the club is fine, because the Glazers are not paying the debt the club is. Liverpool went tits up because the club could not afford to pay its debts due to having interest payments of £37 million and operating profits of £25 million. Not enough cash. At the moment Utd have interest payments of £43 million and operating profits of £110 million. Plenty of cash. Utd may struggle to pay the debt in the future, if revenue falls or costs rise. But that's just speculation, with no facts to suggest that will ever be the case. In banking terms? Is that just another made up phrase? The interest on the debt is 8.75% on the UK portion and 8.375% on the US portion, for an average of about 8.5%. Those are the facts, as reported by the BBC and numerous other reputable sources. You putting an exclamation mark at the end of your sentence doesn't make it true, nor does you claiming that things are facts when you have no evidence and no leg to stand on.
It all boils down to another case of hypocrisy. The thread (And in fear of sounding repetitve) was started because United have started making noise about FFP in the Premier League. The purpose of the thread was to discuss how, because they no longer have the financial clout that City and Cheslea have, they don't like it. The arguements and figure throwing was in fact started by UIR and NOF I was simply counter arguing their claims. Swarbs came on in hismoment of infinite wisdom and quite frankly helped me blow their pathetic arguement away by posting links to financial reports and news stories which made him look like a complete prick! Thanks Swarbs! Feel free to return to the original line of thought on the thread if you can manage to hold a conversation that was aimed at FFP and the PL and Uniteds comical cries of 'Unfair play'
Little snippets here for you Swarbs and Co. "On 11 January 2010, shortly before an announcement that Red Football's debt had increased to £716.5 million ($1.17 billion),[27] Manchester United announced their intention to refinance the debt through a bond issue worth approximately £500 million.[28] They managed to raise £504 million in just under two weeks, meaning that they were able to pay off almost all of the £509 million owed to international banks. The bonds were issued in two tranches, one with a coupon rate of 8.75% worth £250 million, and the other with a coupon rate of 8.375% worth $425 million. The annual interest payable on the bond came to approximately £45 million per annum, with the bond due to mature on 1 February 2017.[29] Contained within the bond prospectus are covenants which will allow the Glazers to filter large sums of money out of the club to repay the PIKs by 2015. These include the carving out of £95 million in cash, the sale and lease-back of the Trafford Training Centre at Carrington, and the ability of the Glazers to pay themselves 50% of the Consolidated Net Income of the club every year.[1]" Given the amount of debt that Manchester United is saddled with, some analysts have estimated that any takeover bid would have to total more than £2 billion, of which around £1.6 billion would be needed to match the Glazers' valuation of the club
It does. Whining about Utd supporting FFP in the PL when Liverpool proposed it much earlier and more vocally in the national press. Keep telling yourself you've won the argument. You may even end up believing yourself
The only thing I belive is that you, NOF and UIR are complete clowns who love the LFC board so much you can't keep away. I have repeatedly blown your arguements apart and yet here you are trying to keep the arguement going. Mate, why not shut down your PC and take yourself off out for a walk, interact with some real human beings instead of the make believe friends in your head - It'd do you the world of good!
No one's saying that the bonds aren't conencted tothe club. And yes, we know that all the Glazers have done is moved the debt from the bank loans to the Bonds, but we pay a much lower interest rate on the Bonds than we did to the banks. You're idea that our interest payments this year will be £70m are wide of the mark. They will be roughly half of that. It isn't exactley the same because of the bond scheme, but I guess a sale could be forced should the Galzers lose thier money and can't afford to pay the interest on those. But that's not really much of an issue as the club is worth a lot more than the money it owes, so all we'd see is a change of owner which would be for better or worse. I'd be more concerned with who's going to take over than the Glazers being forced to sell. United may have instigated the current discussion of FFP in the league but the idea has been around for a while and the majority of clubs support it including Liverpool. I don't know if we have any ammount outstanding on the bank loans, if we do then we are paying 15.5% on a relatively small ammount as the vast majory if not all of the debt is now held in the bond scheme which is 8.375% interest. This is all without taking into account that we have recently taken in some money from the stock market float out of which about £75m was being put down to further reduce the debt.
Exactly. These same numbnuts are saying that it was Liverpool that wanted the FFP introduced into the Premier League. Not once did John Henry since 2010 say that he wanted the FFP introduced into the Premier League. What he said was that should it be introduced, he would ensure that Liverpool were able to adhere to its rules, by increasing commercial growth and cutting costs to a sustainable level. He's actually done both. In the last 12 months Liverpools commercial port-folio has increased substantially, and he has ensured that spending on wages on players that were of little or no use has been stopped. As most of us have said and its clearly worded in the quote ''Manchester United have requested that the FFP be introduced into the premier league so that they can compete with Manchester City''.
I think I've made it quite clear that I think you're an idiot. An idiot who listed 8 players we supposedly signed in 2004 when only one of them was actually signed in 2004. An idiot who insists that we paid £32million for Tevez. An idiot who gloated that Liverpool had won more CL's than United since the Glazers took over. An idiot who has been arguing against himself about whether United are in debt for about 15 pages now. You're also an idiot who's crapped out so much bile about United's level of debt and the reasons for it that only the idiots on your level have put their heads above the parapet and tried to back up the nonsense you've been spouting. Basically you're an idiot engaging on a matter that you know **** all about and have therefore advertised your idiocy to the world. Congratulations, have an idiot badge. EDIT: turns out you're Kingkennysavedmyseason. That explains everything.
