Please don't play dumb. Cym brings this kind of **** in regular threads all the time. And the fact you think, as a moderator of a public forum, that calling people whose views are supported by half the country "****s" and don't think of it as inflammatory is pretty telling. All bigots tend to think of the "others" as being fair game to anything.
Maybe, I should have worded better and not just called them all ****s, for that I apologise to anyone I might have offended. But sorry, I can't hold back my real views about Cameron and his cronies. The natural progression in this thread is that natural. Olympics>Opening Ceremony >Talk about things that was part of it.>Which lead to talk about the political bit. Also, not sure where you see these thing where he brings it up all the time. Maybe you are thinking about Calling all Gooners thread. Well, that thread is basically about all things non-football.
I have to say that I thought seeing NHS in the ceremony was a bit odd, but quickly moved on. I do know that a lot of americans see a health care system as a socialist political issue, which I don't think as many Brits do. Also in the US socialism is a bad word, virtually synonomous with political communism, there being no real understanding of the difference between the politics of communism and the use of the same term to refer to a centrally planned economy. So when an American sees the NHS on the olympic opening ceremony, they immediately see a communist plot to subvert the olympic message with propaganda promoting a communist state. I'm not sure how to explain to them that the NHS is seen in the UK, more in terms of a social responsibility, than as a political issue. Despite the accusations and arguments, I don't think any party could seriously consider eliminating it altogether. I think the vast majority of Britons feel that the NHS is fulfilling a social obligation that is required of an civilized society, rather than as an imposition. I'm a little bit concerned that someone in the US might catch sight of a St Johns Ambulance at the games, see the maltese cross, associate it with the germans, and swastikas, and start thinking that we have a nazi agenda as well.
Thing is political views are ideological views, just as religious views. (the fact that lefties tend to equate a critique to one's religion as critique to one's ethnicity/race is another matter though) Yet I don't think the same reaction would be had here if someone was to call a whole group who identified with a religious view as "****s". That's what mostly bothers me about young lefties especially, which in my very honest opinion are by far the most bigoted group I have ever encountered. If you aren't all giddy about the whole multiculturalism shebang and expect people to assimilate/adapt to the host country, you are a racist. If you aren't all giddy about the NHS, you want poor people dead. If you aren't all giddy about wealth redistribution, you want poor people dead. ... It's 100% pure bigotry. Yet they are the ones that go all gaga and want to lock people up about the slightest indication of an insensitive remark made in regards to religion, race, ethnicity etc. It's pathetic.
Is 'Lefties' not a pejorative term for people with a liberal political pursuasion ? and Is that not just as bigoted as the very views that you claim these people hold ? I'm afraid you've revealed your own prejudices in trying to claim that others hold them.
Not the way I use leftie, I don't know if it is pejorative in other places. Left leaning + preachy = leftie. In this case to keep it short I chose to call the group whose world view is "us, the sane" vs. "tory ****s" lefties. Ample IMO. "Liberal" is a very ambiguous term politically to me. I'm very liberal in many aspects, but I consider myself "right" leaning mostly because I think fiscal and economic policies are the pillars which elected politicians can affect the most. (I don't care much for symbolism) Do I have prejudices against people who indiscriminately call people with differing views "****s", and don't think there's anything bigoted about it? Yes, I suppose I do.
My personal view is that because of their sustained, deliberate and unequitable support of big business over the working man, I think the Tories are a bunch of ****s
What if he is right? Then it isnt bigotted at all, its just a statment of fact and either way its just his opinion. Everything we do is made of opinions which often are partly prejudice because nothing any of us like to think we know about do we really know everything about. Often we dont have a clue. What annoys him, and me, is that often people on the left think of themselves as "better" and more considerate than others. Yet they are happy to look after themselves. Socialism is for other people, many socialists themselves just want to line their own pockets. I know tons of "leftie" liberals who think they are really kind and consider other people due to their beliefs. But wtf do they do? Do they dedicate their life to charity work. Is every spare penny sent to charities to help them help the needy? Or do they piss it all up the wall on beer, a BMW and a fat mortgage that helped cause a global crisis. Its so easy to blame others or to blame society. I dont mind righties because at least they are honest about their view on personall responisiblity and reducing handouts to the minimum required. MOST lefties are hypocrits because what the **** do they do to help ANYONE EVER? Yeh thats right, **** all. So I am happy to listen to mother terasa or even someone who gives 30% of their income away whilst living in a smaller but still fine house and drives a 30k car instead of a 50k car. But the rest of the hypocrit lefties? Nah, their views are worth ****. I aint left or right. I dont care about politics. But if I have a view I believe in then I back it up with actions. Talking a good game is pathetic if you dont.
If it's his opinion then it's not a statement of fact. You've just contradicted yourself in the same sentence.
Over "the working man"? One or the other, is it? I thought I want to see big (and small) businesses flourish as it has a demonstrable positive effect on prosperity of a country, and . TIL i just ****ing hate "the working man" apparently. And that's the kind of **** I'm actually talking about. "The working man", "we the people", "regular folk". Left leaning people love to use that language to dehumanize the ones with the differing political view, so that they aren't actually just regular people with differing views on how to bring about progress and more economic prosperity, but they are the elitist/racist/poor-hating/etc/etc ****s.
I'm not dehumanising anyone. I'm saying that their is clear and demonstrable evidence that the Tory party are more concerned with lining the pockets of the rich OVER supporting the ordinary working man, with regards to pensions, rates of pay, working conditions and security of employment. Take another example, the one we've been talking about. The NHS. The Tories want to privatise it. The result is that business - let's not forget that their 'raison d'etre' is to make a profit, will cherry pick the profitable parts with good outcomes and leave the expensive non profitable parts with poor outcomes to an underfunded NHS. Leaving a two tier system, great if you need a cataract operation, not so good if you need paliative cancer care. My opinion is not based on some wolly championing of the 'working man' it's based on clear evidence of the fiscal policy of the right wing.
Yes there is clear evidence that they just want line the pockets of the rich, instead of wanting to implement what to them is a better system. That is not dehumanizing them AT ALL.
Perhaps you need to read some politcal history and social science instead of trying to pigeonhole the argument into meaninless soundbites.
Well that is golden. The guy using "bla bla the working man" accuses me of using soundbites? Where have I used a single soundbite? I could use soundbites to make it look like the left have ulterior motives too (a la your "lining the pockets of the rich"). But that is your domain. I don't think those that have differing political views to me have ulterior motives, I believe they too want to make the country/world more free and prosperous. I just think that their ways are wrong in the long run and will result to more hardships than they seek to eradicate. And it is coincidentally because of my (sober, unsentimental, pragmatic) reading into political history and effects of various public policies that I have changed my views and have gone from center - center left, to a more right leaning view. Trust me it is not easy to have conservative political views as a 26 y.o. Stating your political opinions on those circles won't win you many friends, which is why I shy away from political discussions. Like I've said, I personally haven't encountered a group more bigoted than politically left leaning young people. Not one single group has a more black and white world view than the idealist leftie. And this is coming from an open atheist who quite regularly has discussions with fundamentalist muslims. If you can make that group seem open-minded in comparison, you know you have game...
Accusing the left of 'dehumanising' right wing views - was the original point about making soundbites . . . that may be your experience, but it sounds a little trite if you're coming from a sober and unsentimental stance . . . That aside and without us needing to dive headlong into a spat about this - I respect the fact that you view a system eshewed by the right wing, I just choose to believe that another system works better. I too share a respect for a sober, unsentimental and pragmatic insight into the heart of what informs and drives policy making in politics. That's why I suggested social science, the academic discipline of social study. For me the work of Emile Durkheim and Auguste comte define the parameters of political science and the behaviour that shapes it. It's more a philosophical and reductionist way of looking at it, but that I think that is what informs the building blocks of how politics exists and what it is. That's the starting point. Modern party politics is another field. The main political parties are a manifestation of the same ideals with a slightly different application of policy making -But the common denominator throughout the world which drives all political / religious / military oranisations in power is managing the overriding influence of money. That takes it out of the world of pure philosphy - in the sense of Aristotle's political science being a 'craft' to engineer systems of society And as a result it places it into a system of control not governed by pure social policy making, but by one of capital, governed by banks and business, for the primary concern of making profit and then attempting to regulate social systems through it. I'm interested to know what you read and study in political history and policy making that has shifted your opinion from the left to the right?
Crikey, if you think that the conservatives are too right wing, try living in the USA, even the democrats are right wing zealots. As the old addage goes, if you are 20 and don't vote labour, you have no heart, and if you are 50 and dont vote conservative, you have no brain!
I think we got some pretty good memes out of the ceremony. please log in to view this image please log in to view this image
