Shergs, I don't believe Kauto was "ungenuine" but I do think he was a bit of an enigma- maybe when it suited him. There were past races eg King George and his first Gold Cup, when he rapped fences hard and yet galloped on strongly. There were also races, mostly when he got a bit older, where he 'downed tools,' as you say - and not necessarily because he'd clouted a fence. I just have a small suspicion that he might not have really been in love with Cheltenham. I know he won two Gold Cups- and 2009 saw him give his best jumping performance there, but apart from that win and his first Gold Cup already mentioned, he fell twice and was pulled up last year in his other four races on the course. Last year, maybe he just felt...."Sod this for a lark!" I know Paul Nicholls maintains he is essentially a "stayer," but I've always disagreed with that. Yes, he stays, but I've always felt his best distance was 2-2.5 miles (OK-an easy three miles round Kempton as well). For me, his Tingle Creek performance in 2006 was as good as any in his career- his class and speed were superb. Either way, it emphasises how wonderfully versatile he was.
Anyone think it might be an idea to invite Supreme Arkle to comment. please log in to view this image please log in to view this image please log in to view this image please log in to view this image
Ha! Ha! Ron. That's what I like- a good stir of the pot! To come back to the original question.... Personally - and money aside- I'd always choose Big Bucks as a horse to own. I just love the laid back dosser that he is! And I'd run him in the Champion Hurdle with either McCoy on board or ask Lester Piggott to come out of retirement; and give instructions to make all the running and beat the field into submission up the hill! I don't think the horse has given 'everything' he has since he came back to the smaller obstacles. Either way, I'd love to see him try.
The horse I wanted to own when I was a wee nipper (asked for him for Christmas but he was not among the pressies I opened that year) was Nijinsky. To date he is still my favourite racehorse. Superb racehorse and no mean sire either.
Nice thread Tam As somone slightly older than Tam, naturally I'm drawn to horses from an earlier era and with a preference for NH racing there are many I could opt for. The original question was which of these three would you like to own. It has to be Frankel of course. But in throwing it open to own choices as many have done, I'd have to say Desert Orchid. Arkle was THE superstar from my youth, but brilliant as he was I wouldn't have wanted to own him for any other than financial reasons. Whereas a few years later came along Dessie, who drew me in as with a lot of the racing public. In the flat racing sphere I was blown away by the brilliance of Lochnager - as were a lot of his opponents, but again I'd have to go with a quirky choice of "horse to own" This was a 2 year old called Pigeon Toes, I have forgotten who trained him but he must have shed bucketloads of tears of frustration at this horse. As I remember, he was unplaced in his first race - in his second race, when the young Reebok started to take a financial interest, he placed second and as I'd backed ew I had a return. I then backed him in his next 8 races (I'm pretty sure it was 8 but time dims memory etc) and 8 more times he was .... second! I then gave up on him - and yes, you guessed. He won! I wasn't as jovial about it at the time, but I smile in fondness now - I don't recall what eventually became of him, but I hope he had a good life
I would want Kauto as a jumps horse, and also Overturn cos he's just a lovely game old horse. On the Flat I would love to own Goldikova, her bitchy attitude matches me perfectly! I couldn't handle having an undefeated horse like Frankel or Black Caviar, I wouldn't be able to cope with the pressure.
Reebok, Lochnager reminds of a visit to Newmarket. On arriving at the course with my girl friend/wife (can't remember) we backed Lochnager and he duly romped in. It may have been the same meeting as when we saw the beautiful 2yo colt J O Tobin making his début. PS I should just clarify that I can't remember if it was before or after we got married. Just in case she looks in.
Zen, oh no! No more men in white coats! Please, please, don't! I saw one last Friday and he told me he could fuse the bones together at the bottom of my spine- but he said it wouldn't do any good! Then he laughed and said he'd arrange for me to have a scan, followed by a visit to the consultant. Who the hell was he then? I saw another one yesterday- who charged me £200 for two plastic teeth in a pink plastic mould. Then he said the permanent one would cost another £400. If I didn't get on with them, I could either have an implant for £2800 or a bridge for only £700! I thought he must be Thomas Telford but in fact he said he was a dentist. Zen, take me away if you like, but no more men in white coats! I think I'm becoming bipolar!
Nice to see abit of objectivity as regards KS, rather than the usual blind hero worship! I pretty much agree with all of that! PS he beat nothing in the 2009 Gold Cup, apart from Denman who was a shadow of his normal self having missed most of the season with a heart problem. Had Denman shown up fully fit and well, KSs jumping would have been put under pressure just as it was in 08
How often are going to see this old "heart problems" chestnut trotted out about Denman? Sure he had a an irregular rhythm, but it responded to therapy without the need to operate. As his doctor at the time stated, "It's very much either there or it isn't and when it's gone, it's gone." It was gone. The fact that he was then beaten had nothing to do with any heart problem, and for people to use this as an excuse for any below par performance of the horse flies in the face of common sense. Who do we believe here, the expert or the man in the street?
So your saying Denman was 100% in the 09 Gold Cup, The horse had not been able to do any work for 6 months, and had been beaten out of sight by Madison de Berlais on his reappearance!* Nicholls wasn't even going to run him , a week before hand, and the jockey instructions he gave to Sam Thomas were to look after him!* There is no way that was Denmans best form in the 09 Gold Cup, and to suggest otherwise is somewhat ridiculous*
Maybe, but to suggest that Kauto was 100% in 2008 is also ridiculous. They can be dressed in combat gear and balaclavas if you prefer Tam...? To slightly change the topic, who would you like to own as a prospect going forward? I'll take Simonsig.
Tam, this thread is starting to get out of hand. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought this was intended as a pleasant thread about which horses we would like to own and why; not a 606 type KS v Denman debate. Surely, having suffered this on 606, that's the last debate we want on here. I'm not going to close the thread but there is a case for either closing it or removing all the "off topic" posts. As the OP Tam I'll let you decide. Failing that I'm going to let the forum decide which action, if any, to take.
The horse was given the all clear, The trainer entered the horse, I assume he thought the horse was doing well enough in private. Surely he didn't enter the horse knowing that it had no chance. Sorry Shergy, horses are not machines, even when fit and healthy, they can put in a shocker. If they all ran up to their potential all the time, we'd all be stinking rich. Usually when a rider is asked to look after an animal, it does not necessarily mean that the horse in ill. It usually means that the horse has a program before it, and there is no good reason to knock it about for no reason. Denman that day certainly was not the Denman of 09, but that is not a proof that the horse still had heart problems. The vets said it didn't. So reason says that another excuse must be sought for the failure.
I felt at the time that, had Sam Thomas kicked on in 2009 in the same manner as he did the year before, he might have gone very close. But he was clearly under orders to look after the horse, so he was never really given the chance to prove his wellbeing. He gave his running in 2010 though, and was beaten by a better horse on the day in Imperial Commander.
Ron, personally I don't think there's any harm in digressing from the main thread, provided it's not prolonged and offensive. In this case, I don't feel that applies. Yet I'm entirely happy to let you or the forum decide- I'm too busy 'cos Zen's sending in "the men in white" followed by "combat troops in balaclavas."
Anyways we can go round and round in circles with KS and Denman, as we have done, hundreds of times, but the facts remain they both lined up on a racetrack 4 times together, and Denman came out on top on 3 of those occasions!* As one man once said!* E.O.S* *
