I'd probably concede arrogance, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. When this whole ****ey non story first appeared my first question was "Does the Queen actually want to shake Martin McGuinness' hand?" - not that I necessarily believed that Martin McGuinness was on the wrong end of the moral scales, it's just that this very question didn't seemingly get asked by many in the media. The fact that the question became more about whether Martin McGuinness would shake her hand, than the other way round, was telling - either the Queen was a puppet who did these things after being instructed to by another person - or she had the class to put aside any personal feelings, without being in any way outspoken, and made a symbolic gesture. Either way, through puppetry or class - the undiplomatic and small minded thing to do would have been to reject such a gesture.
IMO this act was nothing to do with reaching out to Unionism. It was about repairing some of the damage done to SF through their decision not to meet with Lizzy on her last visit to Ireland. Since the arse fell out of Fianna Fail, hoovering up their support has been the main focus and doing that will leave SF handily placed for a tilt at running the free state. They won't go for the socialist Republic because they won't get it so are drifting towards the centre to try and de facto remove the "border" in peoples minds by formulating an All Ireland policy in areas that SF control in the north. Abstaining from meeting with a monarch is an absolutely legitimate stance to take for Republicans but for whatever reason this doesn't trouble me at all. It is playing a game. I am more concerned with the creep towards the centre than the shaking of a hand. But that has been the way with revolutionary Irish political parties since the inception of the state.
Mick, I ws the same. First thing I thought was that Lizzie is shaking the hand of the guy who's organisation put her favourite uncle into the sky. I'm not thinking what I type here, who would? You have a very high opinion of yourself. Martin McGuinness is a Republican. Would you shake her hand after all that has happened?
Of course not, they will always hate us. The conflict isn't 800 years it started in 1969. That lie is being carried forward by educatiated people who should know better.
The cultural revival in the 1880s saw the formation of the GAA an upsurge in literary works coming from the middle classes who wished to be at the centre of a new, independednt Ireland and the re-emergence of the language. Just like the 1970s and 80's where the blanketmen held Irish classes, its primary function was to instill the people with a confidence in themselves. An important part of that came through the use of language. Promoting the language is no impediment to building an Ireland of equals, nor is it a major stumbling block in respecting Unionist symbols and customs.
Only read the first line last time. Fair points. The south ****ed us. Left us to rot, everything was fair game except the obvious. Sinn Fein WILL get into power. The Blueshirts and De Valera fetishists will reap it. They all left us Irish to rot. Long time coming
I dont necessarily know the ins and outs with the Ireland situation, but I know what happened after theBrits left India and I know bits about other situations like the nazi's etc. Based on that I am not suprised and am suprised that some are suprised I know that the freedom fighters/terrorist leaders all became politicians in India and shook the very hands (and went on to serve in some capacity) that they initially 'fought' with. I know that after WW2 some of the nazis became the 'new' politicians as not only were they defeated and would be less likely to rebel but also there was no one else to run the country Its always been the 'leaders' who eventually sell out the people
Party Political broadcasts with Tricolours in the background and big Gerry speaking Irish are aiming towards the lowest common denominator though. I love most of the various different aspects of my own culture - but mixing what is in effect ethnicity with politics is of the Banana Republic - it's largely BNP stuff, even if we do preach a bit of Marxism in the middle. We could teach the language without a political party claiming ownership or authority over it, pulling at some emotional strings to gain votes by a sense of nationalistic duty rather than from an intellectual argument.
And the question I will ask myself when that happens is whether or not I am happy to vote for a centrist Republican party. Maybe I'm a mug but I think the likes of Pearce Doherty has been kept out of the way of this storm (and last year too) so he can be groomed to be the main man. I'll watch Miriam on saturday night on RTE 1 to see how Martin fares. He might be able to sell it to people with reservations. We'll wait and see I suppose.
Mick you talk some ****e. What group of thousands (That's what it would take) would be cheering for Gerry speaking Irish?
I think the opposite. It is promoting a national self confidence. I don't see anything wrong with that? If you are promoting an All Ireland agenda in a divided state, then the symbols that you are going to promote are going to be those of that nation. It is easy to dismiss the GAA as the sporting wing of the IRA but that doesn't hold up to any real scrutiny. What it does is reaffirm a national confidence. That is what they fear, not the perceived politics of the organisation. The same applies to the language. The ridiculous notion of Alster Skatch was to try and find a way of exerting a British Brand of Irishness. It was laughable because it had to be invented. The Irish language is an organic thing that acts in much the same way. It can be used as a weapon (I have been on the receiving end of it myself) but generally it is about a promotion of a culture rather than denigrating anyone elses.
I loved the strategy behind this. Marty shakes Queenies hand; Unionists think, he's still a **** but at least he showed our Queen respect. Republicans think, he's a traitor ****. **** him. Superb.
But there are two distinct cultures in Ireland - the Gaeilge language and the likes of the GAA are almost exclusively representative of only one culture. They can't be called national symbols when they don't represent the entire nation - much like I certainly wouldn't consider the Northern Irish soccer team to represent me with it's almost exclusively Unionist symbolism and British National Anthem. A proper sense of national self confidence is when anyone Irish would gladly shake the hands of the British head of state, who counts 1 million of our friends and neighbours living on the island among her willing subjects. To be insecure on your own nationality would be to be threatened by such small gestures.
For what it's worth, ReasonableRick kind of hit the proverbial nail on head with his reasonable responses. Keyrungs "the Irish left us to rot" post shows up the bitterness that is still in the very fabric of a small % (hopefully) of the Kafflic community. In my world, it's all pretty simple, granted it's easier to see these things for what they are, when you don't really give a **** about them, McGuiness made a **** of it last year when Lizzie was visiting West Britain by acting like a kid, and now he's trying to make ammends. What the West Brits need to ask is this, do you want to be ruled by one of the worlds greatest countries, a country that exported it's laws, democracy, it's science and medicine, all over the world, or do you want to be ruled by the new Germanic European Superstate - that will be with us within a decade?
Fiercer enemies than Britain and Ireland have shaken hands in the past, only to be at each other's throats again soon after. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Can you name one single symbol that represents the entire people of a nation? I cannot think of any. The Gaa, music, language, dance, theatre and literature were all powerful tools in enthusing the people of Ireland. It was not one thing that shaped the cultural revival, but all of these things together. Like it or not, these have come to represent Irish culture and the Unionist community is content with that. Speaking of the divided soccer teams, the alternative to that is the Irish rugby team. Forgive me for generalizing here (I know there are no hard and fast rules) but rugby is a sport followed more by the middle classes. Those middle classes from the Unionist community from the north are absolutely comfortable with being Irish and Unionist. Hell, even Ian Paisley is comfortable with that. When you speak of self-confidence, there it is right there. They are happy to be Irish within the Union. They can easily reconcile that with their “Britishness” . Supporting Irish rugby does not detract from their Unionist ideals. I am going to use Med Dog as the working class ying to that yang. He has no self-confidence in who and what he is so rejects any notion of his Irishness, even as an Irish man within the context of the Union. Nobody would deny him that status but his continued failure to come to terms with his own relationship with who and what he is leads to a jingoistic belligerent sectarian attitude.when that lack of a clear identity is replicated in great numbers across the working classes. That handshake represents political opportunism. It may well also be a reflection of national self-confidence on a personal level for Marty. I will say again that snubbing a monarch is an absolutely legitimate position for a Republican to take. That is a political ideal that my neighbour should be willing to accept, just as I respect their want to remain part of the Union. There is room for more views than just mine.
