If Welbeck gets his shot in the top right corner, if we get the blatant penalty second half, if Johnson doesn't fluff his lines then they're all heroes. We have to realise that and realise that Italy, Germany, Spain, Brazil and Argentina don't have the same hang ups that we do. Holland and France do and they were far worse than England with arguably more talented players.
Thats as may be BUT it doesn't hide the fact that we can't pass the ****ing ball more than 3 times in a row before we lose possession!
I agree with you here yorkie, it's a mental issue. No doubting we have players with enough technical ability, they are just **** scared when they put on the England shirt. We're always playing safe because that's what we've been taught growing up (I'm 25 and was always told things like 'play safe' 'if in doubt knock it out'). Wereas better sides / players will always try and keep possesion. We need to be more positive and have a bit of belief in our ability. We had that in the first 30 mins or so but as soon as we gave it away we lost confidence and spent the rest of the game chasing the ball and consequently tired ourselves out to the point we couldn't take a decent penalty. Pirlo at 33 having played a full season at Juve looked like he could have played another 90 mins when he strolled up to chip the ball in the net! However, the next generation, ie current under 16s are playing more and more 5 asides or futsal or whatever. Theres a goals centre or a 5/6/7 aside pitch in every part of town now and some of the young guys I've watched are not what I would describe as typically English in their style, they are more continental in their techincal ability and that bodes well for the future
Of course the bigger question here is do we want to have the strongest, richest and most competitive league in the world or do we want the best national team? I don't think you can have both!
I think it's a patience thing aswell. We are not really encourage to keep the ball in England, you just have to look at kick arounds 5-aside matches around the country, they just have to get the ball forward as quickly as possible whether that be a long ball or just running forward. Plus the PL is 100 miles an hour and international football isn't like that, i think the players struggle to adapt. I remember when I was playing for my under 16 team as a defender, we had a particularly fast striker and our coaches would just say knock it up to him as quickly as possible and when we tried to pass it out they would say, you don't want to be playing around with it back there. We clearly do have good players, player for player we probably actually had a better team than Italy but I think one of our main problems is yes we don't keep the ball well but we didn't have the option really to change it up that much in the CM, Parker and Gerrard are great players but they are both getting on abit and are a bit gung ho, they're not the type of players to be patient, Parker is tenacious and Gerrard is always looking to create something it's not his style to just keep the ball, they're both sort of similar, typical english players. And we just didn't have the options to change it, this is particularly problematic when most teams play with 5 in midfield. But we have a base to build on, we've got some great players coming through and the players finally seem to be pulling in the right direction. I couldn't understand why Glen Johnson was picked ahead of Richards or why Terry was picked but both had decent tournaments. I would say though I think Hodgson got his subs wrong for the first time last night. He should've taken Young off instead of Milner and I would have then put Milner in the middle with either him or Gerrard just behind the striker sitting on Pirlo and Rooney should've come off, so we would've had Walcott and Chamberlain in the wide positions!!
In what could be my first sincere post on the binner forum ever, I must say I was surprised by how bad England were against Italy. I honestly didn't see any positives whatsoever, it was one of the most one sided games I've seen in a long time. Italy, a supposedly defensive team dominated for almost the entire match, and England never had any chances because they couldn't, as has been said, keep the damn ball. John Terry was excellent. The fullbacks, 'keeper, Lescott and Gerrard were just about ok. Everyone else apart from Ashley Young was very poor, and Young was one of the worst performances I have seen in an England shirt (although I haven't seen that many England games). The question is, these players are mostly outstanding performers in the Premier League, so how were they so awful against Italy?
some very good points being made here and i agree with just about everyone. futsal is certainly the way forward in my eyes - its a very technical game and not only must your touch be good, you must also make yourself very aware of the space around you, and this is my main point. our players don't find space well enough and when they do, its often in the wrong areas. players like pirlo and xavi only complete the number of passes they do during matches because their team mates are aware and find space. watching our mob, they couldn't find space on the moon. the number of times the best movements are made by a striker 60 yards away from the ball is frightening. this requires 'the hollywood' or more often than not, a loss in possession. our lack of patience on the ball is a major worry. the midfield is always so stationery and if our full backs never got forward, i doubt we'd keep the ball at all, let alone as infrequently as we normally do. what england have been good at is defending and being organised without the ball. that makes us difficult to beat and is a hodgson trait which is a good one to have at international level. yes we often gave our opponents more time and space on the ball but that was because they were told to stick strictly to a rigid line across midfield and the back. had either gerrard or parker left their position they'd have been caught out with one simple pass. the problem hodgson and every other manager that preceded him and will follow in the short term is that our players cannot play WITH the ball. they are not technical enough certainly but the most glaring problem is their lack of awareness. that's something that can be learnt but its too late for them. it should be taught at a young age, to constantly have your head up, and the best way to learn... futsal
At least we played with the integrity of an English manager....oh and we are still unbeaten under 'The Hodge'
I went to England v Sweden in Kiev. During the game, I raised an issue with a friend. For spells of that game, especially second half I was very much enjoying England play. Then I said the following to my friend- " It's a massive shame Wayne Rooney is back next game, regardless of condition he is bound to play ". My friend " Ah you can't leave Wayne Rooney out it's like leaving out your best player " I was convinced England would struggle the rest of the tournement upon Wayne's comeback! We were appalling v Ukraine for large spells. However, we got away with this because they aren't a great side. All the commentators / etc were so excited about how many minutes Wayne played, however, he was so far off the pace it was scary. His touch / movement / energy was woeful. Then we have the Italian's in the quarter final.... Now I'm a big fan of Serie A. I have watched Juventus this season on several occasions. If you give Pirlo time and space, he's still fantastic. Milan foolishly got rid of him, however they conned Palermo badly when they signed Nocerino ( came on as sub ). However, if you get up in Pirlo's face, yes he's good, however he's far less effective. The Italian's had an extra man in the middle. This freed up Pirlo. There you had Gerrard and Parker ( both exhausted and not in great condition ) chasing shadows with Pirlo given the pitch to do what he wants. Frustrating. Rooney NEEDED to do more. Against Sweden, Wellbeck and Carroll's workrate was both absolutely outstanding. They were both magnificent live, I was surprised by how much both put in. Had Roy played them two, we'd have certainly given Italy a match. With Rooney, it was like playing with 10 men. I digress! Whoever said the " damage " Capello has done, well that's an interesting statement. At a 66.7% win ratio, he has the best of all time England record, joint with a certain Roy Hodgson. I cannot see what damage Capello did. Fantastic manager, he can hardly help the attitude of the players. John Terry " can we all have a beer please " sums up the English culture. Michael Carrick and Micah Richards BOTH think they're too big to play for England. I'm delighted Glen Johnson had a good tournement, unlucky Richards, perhaps you can add more to your game and get your head out the clouds. As for Carrick, he's abysmal anyway so I'm happy he didn't go. The original point ( I enjoy a good tangent ! ) is well documented. It's down to how children are taught to play football. Massive pitches / less children playing football than before / less parks / abusive parents shouting during games etc is why England struggle to keep the ball during a match. We may have one of the best leagues in the world, however, technically English players are horrific. I could name a good fifty/ sixty nations with far far better technique than us. We're a long way behind other nations, and I'm quite happy with England bowing out in the quarter final this time. I have higher hopes for the next tournement however. Chamberlain is ( for once ) an oustanding prospect, Jack Wiltshire will be back, we could do alright. Also, credit where it's due to Roy Hodgson. I believe he did a brilliant job given the time period / pathetic players not playing " mummy he's picking on me ". How many players from different countries can you think of REFUSING to play for a massive tournement? Infact, name them if you can. There's obviously Roy Keane. I remember the Argentine manager refusing to pick Redondo due to his hair cut.... I cannot recall any German / Brazilian refusing a call up JUST before.......
more bollocks Westlake. You're judging Capello's success on his win percentage? Best record for an England manager? Shows how you know **** all about football.
quite simple answer to the question because we as a country dont want tactical footballers. Fans, managers and coaches alike all seem to appreciate 'heart and effort, a good engine and workrate' How many talented footballers are shown the door from academies in their teens becaused they havent grown enough. I would bet money on the fact that if Messi was in an English academy he would of been released due to his size (a bit ott but you get the point) the national team heroes, the likes of Gerrard & Rooney are loved but many put that down to their tenacity, workrate and get stuck in approach both have talent and can changes matches but in true footballing ability I doubt there are any world class english players. The good old english spirit is about all that footballing academies have wanted for the last god knows how many years and I think it is now changing but that is mainly down to the amount of foreign, technical managers now earning a trade in this country. The results wont be seen for another 4 or 5 years but it may just happen. When Wenger was vilified for using an entire foreign 11 he said he had a youth team set up for young english talent and the proof is only now coming to the fore. That must have been 10 years back so like everything it will take a bit of time but the biggest thing holding them back is likely to be their route to the first team. The premier league has been using the buy in talent route in the main for years and until that ends the national team are like to be nothing more than ordinary
excellent post and i can ratify that most clubs were looking for youngsters who have a big frame and would ignore smaller talent - it was all about athleticism and not about technical ability or prowess with the ball at their feet. embarrassing but true and hopefully this has now changed
thanks supers, The other thing that makes us poor is that ability means nothing and results win everything. I have watched my nephew grow up playing organised league football and although I only watch him occasionally it is amazing how many coaches will only play with their first 11, they Will encourage the biggest player on the pitch to welly it and due to the size of the goals compared with the keeper will tell the kid to shoot, or basically blast the ball over the keepers reach into the net. These are boys of 8-13 ffs. Im not one of those that cry for non competitive matches due to the chances of making the losing team feel demoralised but at this kind of age then ball control, team work, vision and interaction would help the players far better in the long term than smashing it past some midget in a goal 4 times his size. It is meant to be fun and enjoyable yet the coaches seem to think they are competing for world domination. It really is rather sad to watch a grown man shout and make a kid feel like they want to give up playing a sport they love due to a mistimed pass, a silly mistake or a heavy loss. they are kids let them gain ball control but let them enjoy themselves.
" more bollocks Westlake. You're judging Capello's success on his win percentage? Best record for an England manager? Shows how you know **** all about football. " Capello is an absolutely FANTASTIC manager. Look at what he's won. Something in EVERY job bar England. Would he have ever won anything with England? I very much doubt it with the players we have - then we have players REFUSING to be called up in Carrick and Richards........... Statistically he HAS the best win percentage as an England manager - you cannot dispute that, it's a concrete fact. He did a very good job in qualifying both campaigns also. The world cup was laughable at best, but you cannot legislate for Rob Green v USA and anyone could pick a team capable of beating Algeria. A manager is only as good as his players, and whatever side he sent out that day SHOULD have won by 2 or 3. Ziani is a class act, I highlighted him to friends before but aside him, Algeria have nothing to write home about. All ifs and buts - but hey ho that's football. If you want to believe you know more about me knowing **** all about football, I really don't value your negative opinions anyway. In all honesty, I generally disregard 99% of the negative drivel you write but every now and then I will respond.
i agree with you westlake. i didn't like the capello regime but it wasn't because he wasn't a good manager, great manager in fact. something never quite sat right for me and i was glad when he left. you can't argue with his win percentage but you can argue with some of his methods and decisions which didn't really work. fact is, england aren't as good as about 8 other nations at the moment and haven't been for the last twenty years or more. that's why we are perennial quarter-finalists. i don't think any manager coming in is going to change that until the philosophy of nurturing kids changes, which hopefully it is now
Capello's lack of English to me was a main issue. Taking Heskey to the world cup wasn't the best move either! However, all managers do questionable things at times. The beer thing with John Terry at the world cup really riles me to this day. Are the players simply not capable of going a short span of time without beer? The 3-2 home loss to Croatia under Mclaren, I have read many articles saying it was Ashley Coles bday the w.end before and the players were all at it. It's a real shame. We do not possess players with such amazing ability such as Romario and Ronaldinho that will have played in terrible condition time after time and performed. I read Bobby Robson's book, and Romario is the only player he allowed to get away with antics and literally doing what he wanted in his entire managerial career. Simply because, he scored a goal a game at PSV. If he hadn't performed, Robson would have changed his stance. Again, look at the Welsh and English rugby campaigns last year. Wales players all agreed not to drink the entire campaign, had pride in their nation and barring a ridiculous referee decision would have made the final. What happened with England? plenty players getting smashed thinking their big time. Pathetic.
