Absolutely. Some of you may have noticed I regularly comment on the Downing issue with 'it takes two to make a assist', well it also takes two to make a pass. A Xavi, Modric, Scholes, Xabi Alonso, etc is nothing if players don't provide movement to create the space
1. gerrard has made all three england opening goals in each game form crosses form the right hand side... 2. I think hodgson has a creative straight jacket on and it only rare gerrard is getting there and he's putting those balls in. 3. Yes i think pirlo will be far more effective than gerrard in a playmaker role..... like i said watch the game. your opinion is gerrard will do as wel las pirlo i take it... my view is england had better have parker all over pirlo cos he's the guy. i think pirlo will be at the heart of everythignt hey do while england will kick most of their possession away.... deliberately. 4. dare i say it but had england got scholes in 2010 and a fit gerrard further up they'd have done far far better cos schoels is a perfect playmaker. finally for the rest of you lot, i am mourning the impending end of an era where the next set of midfielders coming up seem to want to just get rid and run up the field to get goals rather than make goals for others....i'll say it again there should be no such thang as a defensive midfiedler.. all they are are donkeys like sissoko or makelele who can't pass the thing 5 yards.... Lucas is a far better and even now unappreciated as he's not a defenive midfielders he's a classic midfielder who can make the pass, who moves the ball on and keeps it going. look at the stats for say italy v ireland, ireland had two donkeys in midfield and their side complete at total of 55% passes successfully. the few passes they made nearly half them were to the opposition!!! england are a bit better than that but not so much.... compare this to italy or spain and the pass completion is far far higher (maybe they are not so effective cos they don't have gerrard crossing to good foards mind) I think the athletic defensive midfielder is a dead end in football evolution and perhaps the days of the playmaker are numbered but to be a good player you need to do what lucas does, pass it well, pass it quickly, pass it simply but be positive at the same time.... I'd rather have lucas in my side than parker or sissoko or that diame character... In fact i'd rather given a choice have lucas playing that midfield role than gerrard.... I like gerrard further up or on the wing crossing it. Finally the only time i'm on the wind up is when fellow reds fans say utd are finished or with england in the euros
oh and re suarrol... you are dead right but saying it takes two to pass doesn't make me wrong either. if you've good specialsit forwards and wongers then the "playmaker" can do his stuff... if you've donkeys around you the playmaker won't.. thats fine.. dare i say it but if you took messi and put ireland's donkey midfield behind him he's look frustrated.. equally if you took someone like crouch or carroll and put them in front of xavi or pirlo and they don't move then i'm afraid the playmakers of this world would have to still lump it at them.. Football as you point out requires everyone to pull together, all i'm saying is i don't see a new generation of midfield generals out there and all the top ones are getting old.
I think the Defensive Midfielder role is changing more than being dead. Lucas is part of a new breed of DM's that stay deeper, read the game well, break up play and then pass effectivley.
thats fair, I could say that the "fashion" for DMs stems form the dungas and makeleles of this world but thats a dead end, i think myself the thing that people call defensive midfielders in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 ar ein fact old school midfielders that used to play in the 4-4-2. I just think a real midfield player will stay with the ball as it moves up and down the pitch and should have that passing ability on the ball to cut a team open. After all when you are attacking and the ball comes back to the midfielder from the wing say, (assume theres 10 men back form the opposition) he's in the opposition half and has a choice... do you want him to move the ball positively and try to create a chance or do you want him to pass it back to the CBs on the half way line and from there it end sup back with the keeper? I'd rather have lucas who could pass the ball and make a chance than a player like diame or sissoko form the old days who could not.... dare i say it but mikel is just this player at chelsea.... The thing i see is more busquets than xavis coming through and worse i see players like fabregas who have fabulous talent but who only want to run forward and replay on someone else to find them... If barca strighten out that in fabregas he could be world class, i think its a bad habit created by wenger personally. (clarification when wenger had rvp, adebayor, henry, fabregas played i nthe midfield2 and made his name, when the talent elft he as pushed forward.)
MITO, what I think you are mourning is the passing of the archytipal Midfield General who can 'put his foot on the ball' and then direct play. I have to agree that, at his best, Scholes did have that about him. But you have to go back a long way - perhaps Giles at Leeds, Brady at Arsenal and dare I say it Reid at Everton to see this type in the English game. You talked about water carriers earlier. In that role perhaps 2 of the finest were Hall and Case.
There's an article on BBC football where Pirlo says Gerrard is his idol and he can't wait to play against him..................
Absolutely Now I am not going to claim I am at the same level as the players we have named (they have a little catching up to do ) but I am a fairly good playmaker myslef. I often get pissed off when playing because of the lack of movement, it basically makes it impossible for me to play my normal game. This will only be the same for professionals, they need good movement from their team mates and, of course, the opposition defenders are of a high quality too which makes it that much harder to get the space. When I get movement from others I usually have a very good game because i have the options. Again, this will be the same for professionals. Another example would be Suarez last season. He was doing good things but clearly was on a different wave length to most other players in the side. It wasn't until Gerrard and Carroll were in the team with him that we saw the excellent link up play in build ups. As you rightly say, you can stick a Messi in a **** side but it won't make them a good team. A 'team' is what makes a team, not one player
Pirlo and Gerrard are two different players. Pirlo is a specialist deep lying creative midfielder who can control the tempo. Gerrard is the most versatile midfield i have ever seen - he may not be the best attacking mid, or the best defensive midfielder. But he can play in almost any position at a consistent and high level.
it was di rossi who said gerrard was his idol in what i saw. gerrard indeed is one of a very few players globally, or perhaps ever who can play anywhere at the very highest level. he is a great player but mark my words in the england current set up when you watch italy v england i am betting that it'll be pirlo and not gerrard who is the guy running the game... that's not to say that if gerrard gets a ball he won't play an amazing pass that could win it for us but for most of the game pirlo will be the guy. and i just don't think is in gerrard's game to do this for us. i think the concept of being there with the ball is gone from his head and his focus is getting higher up the pitch... he's 31 he won't change now but i despair hearing lads like shevely and henderson talking this way when its clear they need to do the basics first.
Therein lies the rub MITO. Pirlo sets the tempo for them, Gerrard supplies the passes/crosses and England win.
that would be nice. I think reading peoples feelings that we should define what a playmaker is. DO you think a playmaker is: a) a free role type man like an aquilani would like to be b) a disciplined player like alonso who plays for the team. I guess the reason i ask is i think perhaps we as LFC fans have rarely had a man in the role that i think of as playmaker so perhaps its defeined in peoples minds differently than to me. I was looking back earleir at some teams. 1965 LFC played stephenson, thompson, callaghan and smith in midifled and won v leeds who had giles and bremner and giles would be what i'd call a playmaker then 1974 our central midfield had cromack and hall in the fa cup final and we had heighway and calalgan on the wings with keegan upfront... in 77 we had case and mcdermott and dalglish up front in the team. In 1986-8 (jump forward to my time) we had molby and mcmahon and molby would be what i call a playmaker. Is the role of playmaker alien to LFC and at our best did we either play more wing play and up front or is it he case everyone passed and moved rather than having one focal point.
MITO, I believe that your last sentence hits the nail on the head as far as Liverpool are concerned. Dalglish apart, I cannot remember any Liverpool player who could truly be described as a playmaker. You have to remember that Kenny dropped back into the midfield to originate play. In the 65 side, the nearest thing that we had to a playmaker was Gordon Milne - though he was injured for the Cup Final and our first EC Semi. Though you are perfectly correct to say that Giles and Bremner played that role for Leeds. I think my definition of playmaker is more akin to the roles that Giles and Brady played. A deep lying midfield player who orchestrated the pace and style of the offensive movement. A general who the rest of the side took their lead from.
Ok, makes sense. I forgot about brady at arsenal. I guess if you were making a list platini and zidane might be on it, My original point is i can't really think of anyone in their mid 20s or earlier that plays the role bar modric really... fabregas should but doesn't. with the guys i mentioned retiring and aging there seems to be a lack of generals out there now. The point i think others were making is that the role is dying out for a reason i guess.
MITO, there's nothing new in football. Whilst the Bradys, Platinis and Zidanes are not 'flavour of the month' at the moment, there is no doubting the skill that such players bring. So when we've all got tired of attacking and defensive midfielders, somebody with those skills will be hailed as the world's greatest.
Just read this: One man who has excelled throughout this tournament for England is Steven Gerrard, who finally seems to have been given a role that harnesses his undoubted ability on the international scene. The England captain has set up three of England's five goals at Euro 2012 and has a pass success rate of 86.4%. This is better than his Italian counter-part, Andrea Pirlo, who has two assists and a pass rate of 85.4%. The Italian does have a goal, though, which has so far eluded Gerrard.
i got proved right but its not great is it lads.... pirlo showed what pure class creative midfielders can do... gerrard's lack of legs showed and he ran out of steam after 4 games. sad for him personally of course but it does just go to show... then the likes of pirlo and xavi and scholes retire in one or two years football will be much worse off. Gerrard needs to retire from internationals right now give his all for LFC who paid him 120k per week for half his career despite him ebing constantly injured i nthat time.
Pirlo and Gerrard are two completely different midfielders and should not be compared. LFC are crying out for a player like Pirlo and have been since Alonso left. Gerrard's lack of legs wasn't helped by the fact he had to chase the ball for a majority of the match and put in a defensive shift. But it shows you the versatility of Gerrard as he can attack and defend.
well thats fine but if gerrard is put in the centre of a 442 its only fiar and right to state as i did that pirlo would run the show and gerrard would be a bit part player. England got lucky in that dirossi had his worst game and cassano was terrible. . chasing and working are part of any midfielders role and prilo could do it.... as i had said i simply don't believe in attacking or defensive midfielders. i beleive you are either a creative player or you are a donkey... clearly gerrard is no donkey but england accepts players like diame, mikel, and several others who can't even pass the thing... we love them! it looks as though m'villa will fit right in cos in this tournament he was really bad. I just hope someone can make a few playmaking midfielders again...
