Frankel is as good as i've ever seen, he put on a show today and still kept a little to himself i think.
I have certainly never seen better in the 20 years i have followed racing, however an old boy i know never stops going on about how he went to see Ribot win the Arc as a young man and swears that there will never be another to match him. Frankel for me is perfection, you know this when you have exhausted all the hypothetical ways in which a horse could seriously be taken on. I may be going mad but i seriously think even now if Sir Henry ran him in the July cup over 6f he would win, i feel if he ran over 10f in the Champion Stakes he would win and i feel if he ran in the King George he would win. He is a Miler yes, but he has such a class advanage that without an exceptional horse in the King George I feel he would get home. I know it would ruin him but hypothetically i cannot see anything at thise distances beating him as he shows that over 6 he can travel and excellerate so that would be easy, 10f no problem nd the way he is winning mile races in fast times going away showing no signs of stopping why not the 12 f.
Ribot. Now that was some horse. I'm beginning to think the same about the 12f now Blue. He settles and travels so well I reckon he could travel at 12f pace easily and then go away in the last 2f. Brigadier Gerrard was a "miler" and he did it. I'm not a pedigree expert but he looks better bred for 12f than some 12f horses. Now he's got rid of his precociousness and also matured physically, I reckon he could do it. I would love to see him have a go. But he can't do everything; he's got 10f races lined up
The fact they think he's still improving leaves no doubt 12f is readily achieveable but for now i'm happy to see him race anywhere as long as he's racing.
I can think of countless Arc winners who have won the race far more impressively than Sea The Stars did, Dane Dream last year for example.* He beat Younzain under 2 lengths, hardly super impressive. Don't get be wrong STS was a class act, but when were judging him against the all time best I dont think he had anywhere near the ability of Frankel, and I would be confident that Frankel would have wiped the floor with STS over 8 or 10 furlongs.*
Sportsville....Don't underestimate how good a horse Excelebration is, the only reason he hasn't won alot is because of Frankel, he has not lost a race as a 3 or 4yo that hasn't had Frankrl in it. He is a seriously good horse, and I'd rate him above Canford Cliffs and Goldikova on ability. He got closer to Frankel last year than Canford Cliffs did.* Frankel is the best horse ever, I have no doubt about that, there is nothing that can get near him, and it has nothing to do with the opposition being average. How far was immortal Verse behind him last year? The same Immortal Verse who beat Goldikova*
Frankel may be the best horse of the last 40 years. He's definitely the best miler of the last 40 years in my opinion. I listened to the Timeform radio commentary for both this race and his last and you do get a more measured response on there. Lydia Hislop said yesterday how brilliant Frankel is but he has to prove his versatility to be mentioned in the same breath as Brigadier Gerard. After the Lockinge their paddock expert said his performances were brilliant but only as brilliant as Sea the Stars were. I think they are both relevant statements. Frankel's manner of winning adds to the perception of his greatness. On a few occasions the Brigadier did the same. I've no doubt Brigadier Gerard could have beaten that field 12 lengths. As I say he ran races like that, but as Mercer often said he'd also give a donkey a race, which is exactly what Sea the Stars did. Just because he beat no field by more than about 3 lengths doesn't mean he wasn't a great horse. So Frankel may be the greatest horse for a very long time and he may be better than the two I mention, but he's got to prove by his versatility that he is. Let's see what happens. It's very exciting. (Ascot had changed the going on the straight course to Good after the first race. It is likely to have been good for the first race.)
Best miler I have ever seen. Win against the very best 10f and the all time great mantle is in sight. If he settles in those and wins, maybe a mile and a half really would suit. He would beat Camelot over 10f and I doubt Ballydoyle will let that race happen.
I have no doubt the horse will get 10 furlongs. He travels so kindly that I think he'd probably take the Arc as well. It's a huge step from a mile to a mile and a half, but he has so much ability that any small deficiency he may have in staying power over the 12, would be overcome by his sheer brilliance. As to whether he the best horse ever seen, well that's a huge claim. We're biased by the times in which we live. The horse has not really been tested in company the likes of which some of the other greats of the past have been. My eyes tell me that he's bloody brilliant and the best miler I've ever seen. I've seen film of the Brigadier and to be frank, I don't think he'd beat Frankel, but is it fair to claim the horse as the greatest of all time when he's clearly not been tested against other greats? The danger here is that names like Sea Bird, Man o' War, Ribot, Eclipse, Phar Lap, Secretariat etc are all at risk of being swept aside because of the enthusiasm in which we now revel.
Cyclonic you musn't underestimate Brigadier Gerard. His last victory at Ascot was astonishing he fell out of the stalls and was left 6 lengths, yet won by 6 lengths in a new course record. Brigadier Gerard also won over 5 furlongs, maybe Frankel could have done that but he didn't. Over 6f Brigadier easily beat two of the fastest 2yos in training who turned out to be Group 1 horses next year. And because a horse travels well over 8f doesn't make it certain that he'll do the same over 10f and especially 12f. Tudor Minstrel couldn't do it, and the Brigadier only just got to the line over 12f. Those extra furlongs can empty them, and nobody is going to make it an easy time for Frankel. Personally I hope he gets 10f as there seems a lot of strength in depth over that distance and it would be thrilling to see him just as talented over that trip. But he's got to do it.
Good points Bustino. Personally I think Frankel probably could have won over 5 furlongs as a baby. I don't know enough about the horse to know why he didn't have a crack at it, but his sheer speed I think would have made it a pretty easy task. You're right though when you point out that the extra 2 furlongs on top of the 8 has brought a lot of horses undone, I believe against the opposition he's faced so far, the 10 is not beyond him. The 12 furlongs though is a big call. For a crack miler to attempt a race like the Arc is for most, just a rediculous ask, but there is so much about the animal that stands him above most top flight horses, that it can't be dismissed out of hand. Of course we all know it will never happen so we can all look geniuses without the risk of being proven idiots.
The difference between Frankel and Sea the Stars is that Sea the Stars was a middle distance horse with the speed to get a mile. Frankel is a miler with the class to get 1m2f. These days a lot 1m4f winners do not truly stay. They simply have the class to get home, look at Dubawi - 3rd in the Derby. BTW, has anyone seen the sectionals for yesterday? I keep reading things on Twitter like "Frankel ran the last 5f in a time faster than the King's Stand". I'm surprised they've not published them yet.
Is that so surprising pN? I have heard that done before. The Kings Stand is from a standing start, at the 5f pole the mile field will be at 35mph plus. I have no idea how long it takes a horse to go from 0 to 40mph but it must be a third of a furlong or near that.
No. And may I remind people that Excelebration is the 3rd best horse in the World behind Frankel and Black Caviar. Do not let the staggering margin of victory suggest that he didn't beat anything.
I'd like to see him step up to 10 furlongs in the Eclipse. I realise it is only 17 days away but it didn't look like he had a hard race yesterday. From a timing point of view, of course, the Sussex Stakes gives him more recovery time but I think everyone agrees he has nothing left to prove over a mile. It seems clear he will go to the Juddmonte International afterwards and in all likelihood finish his racing career on Champions Day. I've never heard Sir Henry mention 12 furlongs for the horse so I would be very surprised if he is entered for anything over that distance. Likely opponents in the Eclipse would, I suppose, be headed by So You Think and Cirrus Des Aigles - still 71 entered at this stage. Plenty of other top class notables incuding a possible rematch with Nathanial and any one of a raft of Ballydoyle possibles. I guess the same horses would be aimed at the Juddmonte as well so he looks certain to meet them sooner or later.
No idea but it is important not to lose sight of the fact that Excelebration is a very very good horse who is made to look distinctly ordinary by an absolutely brilliant horse in Frankel.
Quite exciting to think about "what ifs" with the horse. Let's say he goes to the Eclipse and faces SYT and CDA, whose connections ensure a stiff test with a strong gallop from the off. Frankel travels easily in 4th or 5th a couple of lengths off the lead. As they come off the final bend, Tom Queally pulls him to the outside and as he hits the straight he goes 4 lengths clear of the pack in the blinking of an eye. Despite the frantic efforts of his pursuers, the afterburner remains engaged and at the line he is a dozen lengths clear and bounding away. What then?
