Hello darlin'. I never said that the only fans that matter are ones that display illicit banners or light flares. Nor did I condone throwing flares, which this fan might not have done, and which I criticized in my last post, if you'd bothered to read and process it properly. Although I certainly don't see why it should be outlawed to display a banner at a football match, or why a handheld smoke device is deemed a criminal possession. If UEFA want to make this problem to go away, they should have ends like most European club stadia where fans can support their team in this way and not be chucked in jail for the privilege. And the other stewards were backing up their colleague who was trying to instigate a rather pathetic arrest. I know it's their 'job', but they shouldn't register for it if they don't think there's going to be heat when their mates start flexing their muscles in the sort of small-man-syndrome manner you typically associate with people of that employment. And yes, I will defend supporters or "spout rubbish like this" when it needs to be said and everyone else is writing them off as common criminals attacking a good man who's just enforcing what he's told to. Because where I see injustice, I think it should be highlighted, and when people fight against it, they should be commended. Like I say, if he threw it aggressively, that should have been dealt with at the time rather than on the concourse, but there isn't sufficient info to work out the exact details, so I'll leave the jury duty at that. Still pissed off that I'm not patting you on the back, offering you a pint and flabbergasted in amazement at your club's Family Achievement Award or whatever bullshit it was the NCFC website was herading as the Second Coming of Christ?
I'm sure the IRA, Al Quaeda & various other terrorist organisations have used exactly the same argument for instigating illegal violence. FFS man, this was a riotous mob attacking defenceless stewards. They weren't standing up for their rights, they were taking the law into their own hands. Suppose you'd have been quite happy if they'd strung the stewards up for the right to light a flare that can cause damage to other innocent fans - and is against the ****ing law in the first place!! FFS, get a grip and a proper perspective. You're obviously young and don't remember the days before stewards. I remember having to pull my mate off a fascist police sergeant that was going to arrest a fellow Scotland supporter for being drunk. My mate was a policeman too, and couldn't believe what a bastard the sergeant was being. They were worse than stewards have ever been, and you got banged up for it too. Now you usually get chucked out for most things. Then you got a record for peeing against a wall.
To give a bit of background information, flares and other pyro devices are very important to European 'ultras', and there's a continent-wide campaign going on called 'Pyrotechics are not a Crime'. Some pictures of that here: http://www.ultras-tifo.net/news/128-austrian-ultras-campaign-qpyrotechnics-is-not-a-crimeq.html From reading a couple of other reports, it seems the fan lit up some kind of flare/firework and wanted to land it at the bottom of the stand, as it customary for 'ultras'. Obviously it didn't cause any disruption, otherwise the match would have been abandoned, so why the steward chose to retroactively have him arrested by his superiors is beyond me. With the campaign ongoing, feelings are obviously going to be running high among the other supporters who see another fan being singled out by the green-jackets to be read his 'rights'. And they react in typical Russian fashion. Again, a situation that could have been diffused with a bit of discretion and humility from the overzealous football Gestapo who didn't need to intervene. I'm sure aggressive groups have used that argument, and wrongly so. Doesn't mean it's not right in this instance. If the stewards are so defenceless, why are they acting the big man and trying to punish someone who's done no harm to anyone else? I don't really care for politician-prescibed 'laws', only for what is right and wrong. And yes, I think they are standing up for their rights in this instance. No aggressive violence was perpetrated except by the stewards trying to harm an innocent man. The flare could have harmed others if he'd had the intention of doing so, but by all accounts that wasn't what he either intended or achieved. All he did was throw it to the bottom of the stand where it caused no damage to anyone. I'm against all violent power overdoses, whether they be from stewards, police, fans or civilians. I'm just saying it as I see it in this instance. Overall, I think the best system is fans policing fans like you have in Germany for instance, where the authorities work very closely with other supporters to make sure games happen peacefully and innocent people aren't hurt. Works far better than uniformed Hitlers laying down the law in their own terms and pissing off people who are just trying to support their team in a peaceful way.
Rule #1 of internet discussions: Argue with the post, not the poster. The thing I don't get is why people are defending a needless attack from stewards on a peaceful football supporter.
I can not argue with the post as I do not believe Boab was referring to the Stewards as "Scum"... As for the "needless attack" I can only see the Russian fans undertaking any form of attack, so I don't see your point of view. I doubt that you have witnessed anything like this first hand or as WJ pointed out you would not be posting such stupid comments.
I meant with my posts that you are criticizing without actually giving either your or my arguments any thought or consideration. Read some of the other press reports on what happened. I'll repeat what I've probably said four times in this thread already and run through the events for you: 1. Fan lights up some kind of pyrotechnic device in the stands. 2. Alleged to have thrown it pitchside, although there was no harm caused and no interruption to play. 3. Stewards leave him be, even though it's easy to arrest him in a seated stadium if they thought he'd committed a crime or needed talking to. 4. Steward recognizes him in concourse and tries to rat him out to the piggies. 5. Fellow fans rush to his defence so he's not arrested for a trivial 'offence'. I'll also reiterate that if this wasn't the sequence of events and the fan harmed someone else or the steward wasn't trying to do violence to him in the form of arrest, I'm totally wrong and the fan(s) in question do deserve retribution. But there's no indication that's the case if you read the reports on it. I've got family and friends who've been attacked by gangs of people, whether that be Police or civilians. Not sure how that qualifies or disqualifies anyone's arguments, mind. This is about right and wrong - attack and defence.
My last post on this until I get back home tomorrow. There's two sides to every story, and this comes from an official fan leader:
OK I have read some more reports, all I found was unreported racism at the game, violence before the game & the head of the Russian fans boosting that they gave some stewards a good kicking.... If I was FIFA I would be reissuing the World Cup in 2018, as I can not see Coca Cola & Visa paying millions to watch their products associated with these kind of scenes. Russian Press: http://en.ria.ru/sports/20120610/173958292.html Four were detained for causing $1,000 worth of damage to a Wroclaw bar ahead of Russia's opening-day 4-1 win over the Czech Republic on Friday, the ministry said in a statement. A fight with the Turkish employees of a Warsaw cafe on Thursday saw another four Russian supporters arrested and fined €1,000, the statement said. Russian football the statement said: "The Russian Football Union condemned the acts of "hooliganism" by its fans. "There is no place in the stands for those who choose football arenas to declare their personal political and other positions," a website statement said. "The RFU and the Russian national team ask all genuine supporters not to rise to the provocative actions of hooligans and cooperate fully with match organizers in issues of public safety." It was the reason that the leader of Russia's official fan club used to justify the assault. “When they tried to detain one person in a heavy-handed manner, well, of course they were given a kicking,” Alexander Shprygin, head of the All-Russian Fans’ Union, told R-Sport." Russian Press: http://en.ria.ru/sports/20120609/173941672.html The leader of Russia's official fan club has boasted that Russian supporters gave Euro 2012 stewards "a kicking" in a stadium brawl after their opening match, in comments to R-Sport on Saturday. The incident started as Russian fans left the Municipal Stadium in Wroclaw following their team’s 4-1 thrashing of the Czech Republic on Friday, and reportedly left four Polish stewards requiring hospital treatment. “When they tried to detain one person in a heavy-handed manner, well, of course they were given a kicking,” Alexander Shprygin, head of the All-Russian Fans’ Union, said. USA Press: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/euro-2012/euro-2012-russian-fans-hurled-racial-slurs-czech-defender-gebre-selassie-allegations-article-1.1093006 The European Championship was hit by fresh allegations of racism on Saturday, as it was claimed Czech Republic defender Theodor Gebre Selassie was abused by Russian supporters. Officials from campaign group Football Against Racism in Europe claimed Gebre Selassie was subjected to racist insults as he went to take a corner during his side’s 4-1 defeat by Russia in the Polish city of Wroclaw on Friday. “Our observer reported descriptions of that nature and it was directed at the Czech Republic’s only black player,” Fare executive director Piara Powar said. “We are trying to get evidence, but it’s not always possible to capture it on film.” Powar also confirmed a section of fans displayed a far-right “Russian Empire” flag during the game, which was further marred by clashes between Russia fans and stadium officials. Four stewards were taken to hospital.[/I]
Of course not - it's quite right for 50 guys to put 4 guys in hospital. What was I thinking of? Served them right for trying to uphold the law. Erm, because he's broken the law? You may not have noticed, but the authorities are under global scrutiny re. how security is managed for this tournament. The fact that they took the decision to detain the perpetrator after the game rather than possibly start a riot during the game is to be commended. Go live in Syria and see how you feel about publicly declaring that belief. Suspect it may be more than a kicking you might get. Many, many people have died to get the cotton wool of our legal system wrapped around you. You don't seem to be aware of this. Perhaps such thoughts don't exist in Idealistland. Are you for real??? Is this a schoolboy prank??? Sorry, mate, this is the real world. The initial perpetrator broke the law. Then the other 50 did too - and fully deserve time in the jug for it. Disgraceful by anyone's standards. Oh, apart from you. Now if they'd held a demonstration or something of that ilk, then yes, they would be rightfully standing up for their rights. Dear God, give me strength. I guess you went to the Arsene Wenger school of observation. I believe Stevie Wonder is a sponsor, promoting the skillful knack of missing the important incidents that everyone else in the world manages to see. Prick! "I had no intention of doing that, Your Honour". Sounds like a defence that's never been used before! Yeah, right! Of course he's not going to admit to being a naughty little thug. The reason flares are not allowed in the ground so that we don't have 'accident' like these ..... http://www.goal.com/en/news/117/gre...ebastian-saja-hit-by-flare-in-greek-cup-match http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-04/13/content_433900.htm Suspect that the defence was 'I didn't mean to do it - I was trying to throw this illegal weapon I smuggled in at an area where no-one was standing/sitting'. I think you most definitely missed the obvious here. You didn't seem to notice 50 thugs with 'violent power overdoses'.
Light it for what purpose? To hold in his hand? If it was to throw it somewhere, which is what I believe you have suggested, then there is a real possibility of the flare injuring another spectator, a steward, an assistant referee, a player or others. These two comments are not consistent/compatible. Personal and collective freedom is just fine when exercised responsibly. Throwing incendary devices in a crowd situation does not seem to fit that. Sorry, I did not write that. Sorry, I did not write that either.
No he's not! Stewards should not be allowed to manhandle members of the public - if they do then they should expect a reaction especially when they are going up against a mob - the bloke was either very brave or very stupid!!
TC, it may surprise you, given my postings on this subject, but I agree with you. If an arrest is required, then the steward should should be gtting the police to do it. If 'manhandling' is required, then the police should be present to authorise it. Sadly though, that is not the way of the world, and we've all been to pubs, clubs, concerts etc. where the steward is king. It's not just football where they exceed their powers.
The Stewards at The New den are getting worse - they know they are surrounded by the OB and they are starting to take liberties - There will be a major incident at Millwall involving stewards this season and it has been a long time coming
Even more scum "supporters" of football yesterday, this time it was Croatian supporters (as usual) who preferred to have a drink and be allowed to do what they wanted, then became annoyed because the police took action against them. [video=youtube;cCWMogtfotA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cCWMogtfotA[/video]
It appears the Russians and the Polish scum element met up yesterday for a wee handbags go at each other. Whilst I appreciate there is a long history of hate between both these countries, my own thoughts are that not one of those taking part has a brain that understands this history, but simply likes to act "tough" to impress his fellow male friends. I'm sure Psychologists would suggest that those males who take part in football violence, do so to try and suppress their homosexual tendencies, similar to those males who enjoy watching boxing (2 semi naked men, covered in sweat, holding and hitting each other...) have.
Looked like a bunch of cowardly ****s to me, every other clip is Polish lads attacking outnumbered Russian scarfers or visa versa.
