Creationism

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!
WhiteRoseTiger:

1. I am aware of this, it simply corroborates the theory of evolution, I don't think it contradicts my points (correct me if I'm wrong).

2. Sorry, I'd assumed that was a given!

3. I'm not necessarily saying that we have to attribute it to God, but currently, thats a potential theory. To my knowledge (and I may not be up to date) there is no evidence to support any theories for the cause of the Big Bang, so a god is one theory, but equally there are other theories. You can't rule out any until they are proven false. So I don't singly believe in God as the cause of the Big Bang, but scientifically I can't rule it out either.

4. All I'm saying with abiogenesis, is that there is a point where the theory fails to explain life. We go from having complex organic molecules, to having life, with self-replication. These two developments were probably separate (as in occasionally molecules combined by some method to form something we would class as living, and maybe only once did this occur in such a way to have self-replicating properties, and survive long enough to produce a decent population size). God is just one explanation for how this occurs, but that doesn't mean I believe in an all powerful creator, its about as likely as some sort of time travel induced paradox (something goes back and plants life) or that something from another universe caused abiogenesis.

Good points though! But basically I'm only saying I can't rule out God because there is no evidence in the history of time (and pre-time, seeing as it is thought that the big bang created time) that suggests that a god does not exist, and this won't happen until we have a complete understanding of the past. God is just one explanation, but I'm not saying I believe it more than any other theory. The main reason I mentioned God was simply as this debate concerns religion, and God is the most relevant theory to mention in this context.

Points 1 and 2 I was just saying you should have included them in your argument, not that they go against what you said!
Point 3, of course nobody can rule out A God. What can be ruled out is the Christian version of God (i.e. One that created the world in 6 days, etc, and answers ANY prayer).
Point 4, not really. How can a theory on the origins of life fail to explain the origins of life? We know that amino acids form in space and on Earth, that the earliest life forms were single-celled organisms, that OIL can navigate a maze under certain conditions, RNA (predecessor to DNA) can form naturally, etc. And after all, all this talk of non-life to life makes no sense. DNA is just a chemical, and isn't a living thing...
 
I take you just believe that A God (as I said cannot be ruled out, but for which there is no evidence) and that there was a man called Jesus (not really holy, not really his son and who believed in some form/code of morality, a la Buddha)? Or is it something different still?
 
I take you just believe that A God (as I said cannot be ruled out, but for which there is no evidence) and that there was a man called Jesus (not really holy, not really his son and who believed in some form/code of morality, a la Buddha)? Or is it something different still?

it's something different
 
My 2 cents go something like this:

Firstly, science is all just theory which is yet to be proven wrong. Big concepts from the past have been proven wrong, but the current scientific knowledge is all corroborated by evidence.

Evolution has evidence in the fossil record, and in computational evolutionary biology, so as a hypotheses, it stands. Therefore over the age of the earth going back through evolution gives an initial collection of molecules classed as being 'alive'. Experiments such as the Miller-Urey experiment, and similar subsequent experiments, have shown that organic molecules required for life today can be made by non-biological conditions thought to be present around the time of biogenesis. However, they have, as of yet, failed to produce a living organism through this process.
Partially, this may well be down to time, as life had thousands of years to evolve, and these experiments don't have those timescales, but this is compensated for by increased concentrations. The failure to produce life means that this is the only point in the history of life that current scientific knowledge has to concede a God is a possible scientific theory. Whether life can be produced by simulating these conditions in the future remains to be seen.

With the idea of a soul, this could be the product of evolution also. Organisms have evolved to perform better as a group, as it gives them a competitive advantage against a lone organism in a 'survival of the fittest' situation. As a by-product of group living, more 'moral' organisms (obviously when brain power had evolved to the point of decision making), would therefore be selectively favoured, as their actions would be most beneficial to the group, so in times of hardship, the group would act favourably towards this individual. Over the period of time that life has been on earth, this theory allows a strong moral obligation to develop in organisms, and to us, humans show the most advanced understanding of this.

Equally, humans have evolved to the point of being able to think beyond morals, and make immoral (and amoral) decisions. Most 'normal' (I hate using that word) humans have a common concept of what is right and wrong, but some may think beyond this for personal benefit, as our imagination (also a by-product of evolution as it allows us to visualise a way out of danger) allows us to consider them, this can be seen as the origin of immoral actions. An individual will look at perhaps the offer of infinite money for themselves (or even a cure for all disease and world peace) in return for killing Hitler as morally justified, so they are looking beyond the moral decision to murder someone. This creates the 'sin' in the world.

So, by applying scientific theory (which is unproven, but not proven wrong as of yet) morals can be deduced. The bible simply writes down this moral code, in a form of stories aimed to educate. When it was written, scientific theory was not at a point to inform some of the stories in it. The bible is the work of humans, who make mistakes, explaining the contradictions and apparent errors. As for the story of Jesus, unless someone can produce a skeleton, and prove empirically it belonged to Jesus, then there is no evidence for it. I believe (and this is therefore beyond science) that the stories of Jesus, and other prophets,etc, in the Bible, simply draw together an oral history of the time and try and link it together to strengthen the messages it contains. Prior to the theory, and subsequent understanding, of evolution, God was used to explain anything science could not, and this hasn't change today. The Big Bang explains the evidence remaining today for the start of the universe, but offers no corroborated theory for what caused the Big Bang, and so that currently must be attributed to a 'God' under current scientific understanding, as must life. You can argue Gods are just a way of explaining the unknown, which may well be true, but until there is empirical evidence to the contrary, Gods can still be considered a scientific theory, albeit one amongst many competing theories for certain events in history.

So when it comes to practising religion, I'm agnostic, because I scientifically cannot rule out a God, but I do not practice a 'religion' as such, but simply follow my moral code which evolution has given me.

Jesus thats long winded! :cheesy:

Edit: Just realised how long winded that was! Well done if anyone read it all! And feel free to pick holes in my logic, I'm sure there are some, but thats just how I currently interpret the universe.


Damn fine read mate well done. <ok> <ok>


Problem is me being ******ed it will take a couple of more read throughs before I can comment. :p
 
Points 1 and 2 I was just saying you should have included them in your argument, not that they go against what you said!

Ah, ok-thought it seemed a strange argument. Science tends to agree with science for it to be called science!

How can a theory on the origins of life fail to explain the origins of life? We know that amino acids form in space and on Earth, that the earliest life forms were single-celled organisms, that OIL can navigate a maze under certain conditions, RNA (predecessor to DNA) can form naturally, etc. And after all, all this talk of non-life to life makes no sense. DNA is just a chemical, and isn't a living thing...

All I'm saying is that, for the moment, the fact that organic molecules can form a closed, self-replicating system that we would class as life remains a theory, there, as of yet isn't any evidence of it. For that, all I'd like is one experiment to simulate conditions on primordial earth and produce something we would class as life, however basic that is. Then I would whole-heartedly embrace that theory, and reject God as a potential explanation. Until that happens I cannot reject God, despite my personal thoughts that abiogenesis seems far more likely.

Off-topic slightly, I'm not sure if you can call RNA the predecessor to DNA, seeing as in most cases in cell biology RNA is synthesised from DNA (at least in the cases of mRNA, tRNA and siRNA and probable more cases I can't think of right now.) But then equally we don't know enough to know RNA wasn't a predecessor primordially to DNA. In fact, theres a theory I've just found which supports you here!
 
Damn fine read mate well done. <ok> <ok>


Problem is me being ******ed it will take a couple of more read throughs before I can comment. :p

I didn't say you were ******ed. I surmised that you were either ******ed or not qualified to comment based on the OP's assertions.
As it turns out, you qualified what you meant by "bullshit".
 
I love science. I also have a healthy religion with the almighty. It ain't human. Have a look at paganism - Tis enlightening.

*Relationship, not religion. Lager and cider has gone funny inside muh....