Can a racist comment ever NOT be a racist comment?

Akard one this - whenever this topic is discussed you always fell you need to prefix it with 'beofre I start, I'm not a racist' or ' I've got lots of black freinds' because no one wants to be thought of as biggoted in that way. But then it looks like you're just saying it to protect yourself and that really you might be, which I've no way of disproving,so I know I can't win on this...anyway...

Can a racist comment ever not be a racist comment? What I mean is, we all know what it's like at a football match. I don't need to explain the whole range of emotions that we all go through - love, hatred, anger, frustration, joy, impatience, incredulity, satisfaction, smugness, denial...it's one of the few sports where you can pack a hell of a lot of differing feelings into a hour and a half.

Because of this intensity of emotion, sometimes people can say things in a spilt second that they don't mean and they know is wrong, but it just comes out. Like in an argument with a loved one where you say something really nasty and hurtful. Those occasions where as the words are coming out of your mouth, your brain is shouting NOOOO! We've all done that I'm sure.

If you're targeting your wrath at an individual, I think it's a basic of human nature that you pick up on their most obvious feature/trait as a way of hurting them.

So if it was,say, Peter Crouch, you wouldn't scream: Crouchy you blonde twat! You'd scream: Crouchy you lanky string of piss!', picking up on the most visible physical trait, i.e. he's about 9 feet tall. Similarly Scholes, Neil Lennon, Sidwell etc. would all be 'ginger c*nts!' Keane (Robbie and Roy) would be 'Irish twats' etc. etc. Big nose (who you calling big nose, big nose?) fat bastard, boss-eyed, spotty, hairy, midget and so on and so on. All of these physical traits and more probably get shouted week in week out. It's all done in a nano-second as your brain processes what they look like and chucks out words designed to pick up on that one overiding feature/association.

So if you have a black player, the obvious visual thing to a white person, in that one split second, is that they're black. Not that they're a couple of inches taller or shoter than yourself, that they've got a funny haircut or big feet, but that they're a different colour. And don't say 'Oh, I never notice anyones colour', because that's a lie. I'm not having it.

So, when I finally get to the point of this article, can it ever be understood/forgiven that someone might call someone a 'black bastard' or similar in the heat of that split second and be forgiven, and can it ever be accepted that that person isn't racist and may well have freinds from all sorts of backgrounds, but just 'lost it' in that moment?

I know that an argument would be that if someone did say that, then they must have 'underlying' racist feelings, and that this must be what they really feel. Can we ever accept that someone might shout out something like this, yes to be hurtful, because of those emotions I mentioned, but not really be a racist, or tarred with the racist brush?'

I will admit that when I've been at a match and emotions are running high and somethings happened involving a coloured player, words have been forcing their way up my throat, but I've held them back, or managed to change them at the last mili-second from 'black' to 'useless' or 'ugly' or something like that, beacuse I wouldn't want anyone to think of me as a racist, and it would be impossible to explain that it was aknee-jerk comment. But in these situations maybe some people can't help it or react mentally too slowly to change their words.

I can see that another argument that could stem from this is 'well if everyones forcing themselves not to say stuff, then every white football supporter must be a closet racist' - that's what I'm trying to say here (with not much clarity or success) - you can, in a volatile situation, say something that's not in alignment with your core values and beleifs, and knowing it will be hurtful, and because it will be hurtful. It's not defensible or acceptable, but it can happen without the person involved being a racist, I think.

I think there's a distinction to be made between comments like these and the comments made by overtly racist twats. How you'd make that distinction and prove it, however I've no idea.

For anyone who's got this far and maybe very angry and/or think I'm condoning racism - I'm not. read it again. I'm happy to have an adult discussion on this, getting into an abusive name calling stream isn't going to answer the question.

 

In answer to your initial question ' Can a racist comment ever NOT be a racist comment? '

Yes, I think it can

I often hear Pakistani people call others Pa*i's or Black so and so's
I often hear Chinese people call others Chi*ky's or Yellow Sh*te

They always try to get me to engage in their name calling but I always reply "you can say that but I can't and won't"

I find it's almost all of the younger generation of the Chinese and Pakistani community that do this ( well the ones I do business with)
the Pakistani's I find are the most vocal to any other race
but cry foul when it's against them

 

I know you were mostly talking about in football but this is a bit of a sweeping statement isn't it? When people say they don't notice, they obviously mean that they don't pay active attention because they're used to seeing people of different races regularly. It entirely depends on your experience: If you're raised and go on to reside in an area that is predominantly one race then obviously you will notice, but if you're used to dealing with people from all races regularly you really don't notice it unless explicity asked to because it's just another human.

In a situation with a minority (like an average English football team) I see your point: In a room filled with black people and one white guy named Bob; if somebody asks which one Bob is, nobody is going to say the man with blonde hair. But the overwhelming majority of people, myself included, don't sit there thinking "wow this guy is totally chinese" whenever having a conversation with someone from China.

 

I don't have time to read that right now but I think I get the gist and I agree with you. But people are so tetchy when it comes to racism, and using the word such as "black" in a description of someone is wholly unnecessary, so just don't use it.Personally I think racist jokes are fine too, a joke's a joke, if you take offence to it you deserve to be offended. But there's no need for them to be posted, so just don't do it.

 

I've got no black friends and couldn't give a **** if I offend anyone, but I'm still not a racist!

 

I see what you're trying to say and fair play, at least you're honest but I have to disagree. Never before have I used that sort of language, maybe when I was a kid, but never as an adult. I can honestly say I don't see a black person first and foremost, therefore I don't use black as a prefix to a derogatory slurr. I think it's been programmed in from my teens that you just can't say that. I know black, asian and chinese people but not many so I'm no more influenced than the average man. My mate is half indian and we literally nickname each other purely according to our skin colour but that doesn't mean either of us would expect strangers to just accept it so we keep it between ourselves.
And also, the difference between racism and general insults is such that calling someone a black so and so suggests that their skin coiour is their stand out feature over them being fat, lanky, having a **** haircut etc and that shouldn't be the case.

 

Racist jokes make me chuckle, it's humour at the end of the day so you're right, people shouldn't be so sensitive. Mostly white, over the top PC arseholes are offended by them. It's also worth noting that there's nothing wrong with referring to a black person as "black", just don't use it in a derogatory manner. Calling someone "coloured" is far worse as it generalises anyone who is non-white.

 

This pretty much sums up my view on the subject.

 

I wonder what Lenny Henry's view on this subject is?

 

something unfunny no doubt.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAorQUzjz0g

 

This has been discussed a fair bit already and you're right it's a tricky one to broach.

I'm currently doing a linguistics module at uni and for last year's module wrote my whole essay about the presentation of black people in popular culture (be it their own in rap/hip-hop or their presentation by others in the news etc.)

Racism has come to encompass the recognition and discussion of race, when at it's base definition it's simply the discrimination of someone or a group of people solely due to their colour, race of creed. People from other cultures and races ARE different, recognising these differences is not racist (despite what some may suggest) it's common sense. It's why there are MOBOs (Music of Black Origin) it's why there is Bollywood...The only issues arise when these differences are used to belittle or discriminate against people!

I know using a distinctive feature as a pre-fix to an insult works for most other situations, but it's definitely something I would refrain from doing when it comes to race UNLESS it's within the context of an acceptable situation, i.e. 2 people from either race simply taking the piss in a friendly way.

I do find it quite interesting that you said you'd call someone an Irish bastard without thinking...I don't take offence, nor would 99% of other people, but switch Irish to Indian, Pakistani, Chinese or African and I imagine the reaction would be VERY different!

 

This reminds me a bit of a joke I heard, where the racist element is more implied than it is direct:

"I saw a black guy walking down the street the other day carrying a TV, and I thought '****! That looks like mine!'. Then I remembered mine was at home sweeping the stairs".

Just how racist and offensive is it?

 

It's mostly blown out of proportion IMO, because of our nations past history it's something that has stuck and now people know it's wrong to single people out because of the origin and race.
Yet if a white man calls a black man "Nigga" all hell breaks loose, but if a black man to another black man calls him "nigga" nothing is said. And in fairness the media also jump on this kind of crap.

A couple of years back I worked with a guy in his 60's who had spent 30-40 years out in South Africa. We had some Indians come over to train in the UK at our offices, and the guys quipped to those around him (not out loud) "I wonder if they parked their elephants at the door?? Or they'll do their washing in the lake next door at lunch time, beat them on a rock!!!"

I found it funny cause to me that isn't a racial slur, just a generalisation of their culture. But a lad and lass in the office got on their high horse about it and complained about it.
The manager had to have words with him about it. I thought it was all a bit pathetic personally.

 

I do find it quite interesting that you said you'd call someone an Irish bastard without thinking...I don't take offence, nor would 99% of other people, but switch Irish to Indian, Pakistani, Chinese or African and I imagine the reaction would be VERY different!

I agree with this opinion.I lived in London and the odd time I got a bit of stick i.e Paddy,Mick etc but was just banter and I never took offence much the same when Geordies would be called Northern such and such,I regard it as regional banter nothing more unless there is some menace behind it.The other day there was a thread about schools and a certain banned member decribed his teacher as a "irish bitch"I didn't take offence to it but at the same time I didn't think it was right if you know what I mean.

 

To be sure to be sure (sorry if that's offensive)

 

This argument is silly.

Dreadful racism to blacks and Asians has been prominent for centuries and it's right that we are more wary of it.

Irish insults have always been considered 'banter' as Irish people have always accepted it that way and as such and it's never been used in malice. When someone says an Irish insult, you can almost be sure there's no malice behind it.

The difference with blacks/Asians etc is that insults towards them throughout the previous decades/centuries have almost always been malicious and full of hate - this is the main reason we are more sensitive towards these races when it comes to insults - and rightly so, imo. The absolutely disgusting racism seen on both a political and social level - and which is still going in (to an obviously lesser extent) today - towards these races is the reason for this.


And just a quick note - statistically if you start a sentence with "I'm not racist but..." the following comment will 99.97% of the time be racist - check the National Statistics website.

 

Dunno mate, the Irish immigrants had a hard time of it in the last 150 years or so, it was only since the 70's really that it bacame banter etc. Guest houses would pigeon-hole Irish and blacks as very unwelcome...

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Cheers for the info, I didn't actually know that.

it's understandable though that if it became banter in the 70's, we'd be used to it by now. Black/asian insults still haven't became banter because a majority of this generation are still fully aware of racism (80's and 90's) or have seen it first hand, especially as it's still prominent in today's society.

 

Would anyone on here be offended if a Black or Asian man called you a honkey? Casper? Sour-cream faced mong?

I wouldnae.