Well don't know if they're level, but he has outperformed Vermaelen this year. TheBear is a confirmed Vermaelen fanboy though, he can do no wrong in his eyes. This season, saying Koscielny hasn't been able to match Vermaelen is similar to saying Arteta hasn't been able to match the quality of Ramsey. Makes absolutely no sense.
I don't like the idea of a back 3 at Arsenal with no wingbacks. I think it would congest our play in midfield and leave us open to attacks on the flanks.
I beg to differ and being a complete 'statistics geek' that I am they seem to prove me right. Fans often confuse a 'good player' with a 'good defender'. 'Gent' certainly cant tell the difference. Firstly we cant play Vermaelen and Koscielney together (except maybe in Europe) when we do in the EPL the leagues larger strikers CONSISTENTLY score against us. Crouch, Drogba, Wellbeck, Ba , Adebayor, Zamorra etc.. have all netted against this combo this season. The midfield trio we played for the majority of this season (Arteta,Song,rosicky) may lack some creative quality compared to some of our previous midfield's but they are all hardworking and can all both attack and defend. Therefore we can be pretty certain that most of our defensive issues lie almost entirely with our defence. 44 league goals conceded last season and 44 this (with two games to go) is an APPALLING record and the one consistant factore in this time period is Laurent Koscielney. When Vermaelen was out injured we conceded a higher no of goals (1.63 a game as opposed to the 1.13 a game when he plays). Thus pretty much proving he's our best defender. Koscielney is great on the ball, he's quick and puts in a great sliding tackle. But we cant ignore the facts: during the period he has been a regular in our back four we have conceded more goals that at any other time during Wenger's reign as manager. (despite having a slightly more defensive midfield line up) He's a good player but an average defender. The fans claiming that he's our 'best defender' need to provide some evidence for this claim. Because frankly there is none.
defending stats aren't all about one player. vermaelen is very good, as is koscielny. koscielny has been partnered with just about every other CB this season, and because they haven't played together often, their partnership is pretty bad. he is a great defender when paired alongside vermaelen or djourou (when he's playing well). mertesacker was learning the english game and koscielny had to cover for him. stats don't prove everything the bear.
They dont prove everything no - but they prove more than mere subjective opinion. ..but the point I'm trying to make is two fold really. 1. We concede ALOT of goals. (more so when Vermaelen is'nt playing) WAY to many for a team with title aspirations. But those who think we dont need to strengthen in this area are deeply mistaken. 2. Being a good player and a good defender are two different things. You could hardly say Keown or Adams were good footballers because they were'nt. In my opinion koscielney is a good player and an average 'defender'. 44 league goals conceded is hard to argue against.
TheBear, when Vermaelen was out Kos had to play with Mertesacker. How does that play in your statistic? Almot all the defensive mistakes have come on Vermaelen's side this year when he's played alongside Koscielny. You have to judge them on equal terms, being matched with different CBs and against different opponents proves ****-all. Just the ManU 8-2 game skewes the statistic completely... i suppose that pathetic team performance falls on Koscielny shoulders? Just think back and see how many defensive lapses you can find for Vermaelen and compare them with Koscielny... exactly! If we judge on performances this season Koscielny has just been more solid. Are you going to judge on performances or some "mythical" maximum Vermaelen can supposedly reach, and present **** statistics to back it up? And don't get me started on Vertonghen... i bet none of you here have even seen him play a full game. He plays on the left side as a CB, is left footed and overall is almost a replica of Vermaelen (albeit taller).
It does'nt make a difference, statistically we concede less with Vermaelen in the line up. Sure we've had all kinds of changes when it comes to our back four but so have United. And they have conceded 32 (without a recognised defensive midfielder) I'm a crossfit (http://www.crossfit.com/) coach and teach strength training for athletes.(Olympic judoka, boxers and MMA fighters) and when we first signed Laurent Koscielney I was unconvinced he had the frame or musculature to make a decent centreback. This is the reason he had never played top flight football before reaching the age of 25. And I still feel the same way. Despite hitting the weights since he joined Arsenal, Koscileney is not a good build for a centreback. I cant help but think he should be playing at fullback or defensive mid. Like I said he's a very good player. I just dont think he's a good defender. Fans need to show a bit more consistency. Chamakh gets slack for not scoring goals then surely Kos should get a little for the HUGE number we concede. He has played more than any of our other CB's over the last two seasons. Also as I said earlier we DO need more height at the back at least Mertesacker gives us that.(he also has his flaws though) I'm still doubting wether we will actually sign him but Vertonghen is better than Koscielney. If we do, I guarantee you we will concede less goals next season.
What about their actual performances? We all know their background... Do you watch any games or just follow live feeds and base performances by comparing statistics on unfair terms?
How are they unfair? All our defenders have had to play in an unsettled 'back-four'. I give you 'stats' and you give me nothing but opinion. It's like arguing with a creationist about the origin of mankind. If you want to believe something your going to believe it.
Stats can be skewed; just take the ManU game as an example, Koscielny played on our worst patch of season when we had shortages everywhere and played like crap as a team. We do not have the luxury of a controlled environment to compare Vermaelen with Koscielny. What we can do is compare their actual performances. I could make a 10 minute reel of times Vermaelen has set up the opposition, kept plays on-side, not tracked back after adventures forward (with fatal results) and made other critical mistakes. As for Koscielny I find it hard to recall 1 or 2 occasions where he hasn't been rock solid. Not saying Verm is bad, but this season he has been bad defensively. Based on your ******ed method Gallas would be miles better than both Vermaelen and Koscielny (because we didn't have our most horrible start to a season in half a century). If you can't comprehend how simplistic and flawed your method is, I will have to leave this discussion as we've obviously capped your mental capacities. Are you SERIOUSLY saying Vermaelen has been a better defender than Koscielny this season? This season, not talking about each player's mythical best form or physical condition. This season.
He obviously doesn't watch games. He tracks disparate statistics and compares players physical build.
Depends what you mean by 'better?' (defensively, in the air, distribution etc..) but yes I do think Vermaelen is the better defender. (and the stats back me up on that assumption) Like I've already said United have also had a very unsettled back four this term and have conceded FAR less than us. I also think Bakari Sagna is our only truely 'world class' defender.
That's because they are athletes. You realise it's not a coincidence that most centrebacks are tall? just like its no coicidence that Props in rugby are short and stocky? Or jockeys are small and light?.. its because that build best suites the purpose of that role. Yes I use science and you use nothing more than faith to back up your assumptions. View attachment 13149
theBear - let it go, your stat is pointless. If Vermaelen played against the likes of bottom 3 teams, for example, and Kos played against the likes of top 3 teams, for example, the chances are more goals will be conceded against the better teams and so make Kos' stats look worse. As has been mentioned some players are on form and some are off form, this is a team game and the team have been on form and off form, a goal conceded cannot and should not only be the fault of one player unless the goal was a direct result of a mistake by that player. Vermaelen has made more mistakes this season than Kos. this should be a no brainier, Kos has been magnificent this season and a few months ago everyone was commenting on how much he had improved since last season.
