In regards to other fans laughing Frank - hasn't the ticketing problem been the case since we moved to the new Wembeley. I'm not sure if any fans are laugh at you at all, that may just be the Liverpool paranoia creeping in Playing devils advocate but if sponsors put so much money into football and seeing as corporates have paid so much for the right to 'buy' seats at Wembelely don't you think they are also entitled to something for their lay out. The FA should just lower the amount of tickets available for corporate sponsorship and put the price up ( supply and demand and all that ****) I'm not saying the current approach is correct but neither do I think it's a new issue.
Hi Eric, you're right it was a bit of a generalisation but I thought I'd got across that I believed it wasn't a LFC only problem just that it effects us this year. As for the balance between corporate & fans it's tricky. Corporate pay the millions for all the bells and whistles but this is largely (from their point of view) to attract NEW foreign supporters to the game. While our teams and so through them us fans benefit from this with more chance of success that is not the objective. The objective is to sell merchandise outside of the guaranteed market. The danger is disenfranchising your core market so much that it turns it's back on you. While football is so engrained in our culture this may prove unlikely it's still a possibility. But as I said the real danger for the FA is that by embracing the shark that is corporate so fully they have nothing to fall back on when the monster they produce turns on them for the same reason they turned on us: more money It brings us further down the line of the yanks. Today justification for not letting more fans in. We accept it. Ten years down the road this is used as justification for a euro league: sure fans don't get to matches when they are in their own country; what difference will it make right? E.g Man United are a global brand, most of their supporters aren't in Manchester (not a dig; factual argument that corporate can use) so if the new sponsors in 2042 say move the team to a hundred thousand seater in Spain or china: we'll still fill it with Man United fans wearing Man United merchandise right? They'll still have the money for the best players to compete in the now World league right? In thirty years time people will forget that the "Man" in Man United use to mean Manchester right? Because at the end of the day it will have been a long time since someone in Manchester actually went to the game. And the money & success in respect of trophies kept rolling in because that's what's important right? They still wear red, and will look the same on tv to the global fan base watching sky wherever they play there football? An exaggeration? Probably but never underestimate what following money first will do.
Good post Frank - you could however change United with any other top club is that scenario aswell. Like you say it's highly unlikely to happen but it was touted about having one game abroad a season earler in the season which is still a possibility ( and most probable based on the amount of money involved ). It's just sad the way football has gone where corporates get more tickets than genuine fans, but it hardly suprises me. Football has been pricing families out of the game for years now which is a real shame
They're out to get us Eric, I can hear them whispering when I take of my tinfoil hat! Lol I only used United to make it not about Liverpool, your a fan & because they're successful globally & would probably be one of the first theyd to do it too. It will all balance before then but a club for fans is a thing of the past.
The sad thing is that there is a lot of possible truth in the scenario that frank pants. Just look at the attitude towards the European Cup. Even as late as the 1990s it was still seen as an adjunct to winning the league title. Now because of both the money and the kudos (supposedly) that comes with being involved in the CL the league itself has become a stepping-stone. The next step will be to make the World Club Championship into a 'real' tournament - now the corporates really would want to latch onto that!
Personally I think the winner should be awarded a CL berth, surely the winner of the Europa League would be better than some of the lesser teams to make the group stages? To coincide with this rule change, they should stop the 3rd places teams in the CL group stages from joining the EL. Once you are out..you are out.
But Zingy, you have to remember that ALL of the truly top sides are global entities. They need to grow their global audiences. At the same time the South American clubs are almost desperate for a new income stream other than the Coupa Libatadores. Add to that the Asian leagues will only grow stronger and Africa needs a larger shop-window for its players. The ability to actually increase the return form European competition has probably peaked. Hence, owners like ours will ultimately want to increase their returns within a global market.
Globally football is corrupt as **** and Fifa are treated better in many countries than a visiting monarch or the pope,they have their own armed security force and are given police escorts everywhere they go. The majority of them have never played professional football or been involved at club boardroom level,yet they dictate their ideas that make more money for themselves to their continental partners like Uefa who in turn dictate to their member nations like the FA. The sooner these fraudsters are disbanded the better for the game.
Who of course will not take the money, perks and pseudo adoration for "development projects" in third world regions run by shady characters siphoning off the regions money into Swiss bank accounts. If you're going to work with pigs, you can't wear white.
Yes Frank, I recognise I have 'issues' with all this. I know damn well we can never 'win', but previous issues have engendered a 'no surrender' attitude in supporters of my age. Kenny was never my first choice as anything other than a caretaker manager, and I predicted that the press would go for him because of his Hillsborough stance (especially NI and mail papers). Now he's here he deserves uniquivical support for everything apart from results, and even then we must recognise that generally the football is five times better than with Hodgson and Benitez, and in many respects we've just been unlucky. That said, what do fans expect? We were 24 hours from administration and (deservedly) 18th place 18 months ago. I will take years, utterly years before we challenge for the title, though it IS disappointing we didn't push for 4th place, given that after the top two there is nothing to be worried about. BUT, while this club is rebuilt over the next decade(s?) we need patience and a determination to support Kenny. We damn well knew, even without the Suarez affair, the media would go for Kenny. We, and the insipid owners, need to actively and aggressively FIGHT the national media and the FA, not roll over and hope they pick on someone else. They, specifically the NI press and the FA, are our natural enemy, and they WILL be back. And yes, again I recognise I have mental issues over this, but let me remind people of that tin-hat photo UIR keeps posting - correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mel Gibson's carachter right in his paranoia?
Well written. The only way to beat the press is to win. They can write anything they want about us but as long as we win, I don't care.
That's my point; being less vocal about something is not "giving in". They will print what they want, when they want: it's the nature of the media. Our best recourse & "revenge" if you want to look at it that way, is not to get into a verbal slanging match with them and get distracted from what will hurt anyone that is anti Liverpool the most: the old Liverpool Way: Quiet Dignity in the face of doubters off the pitch and utter ruthlessness on the pitch. We've had too many years of the circus off the pitch while drifting on it. Whether its Kenny or his eventual successor, they & us fans concentrate on the football which is what it is about. If you truly believe that the media has a specific anti Liverpool agenda that will continue, reacting with anger & stressing yourself out means they win: they take the joy out of supporting your team. Not having a go Donnie; just don't like seeing a fellow red this upset. Especially over 2 bit hacks & a ruling body that lost control 20 years ago. The futures bright! Enjoy the Sunshine.
I agree Donga that the press will always go head hunting with whoevers in charge at LFC and the same goes for the establishment figures at the Fergie Association but as life-long Reds we know it has always been this way. Does it bother me personally? No not really because we're all used to it surely. I think LFC 009 has it spot on...the best way to counter this is to win trophies...including any European trophies we happen to be entered into I'm happy gimps like UIR post tin-hat pics etc because it means the siege mentallity is being thoroughly ingrained back into our collective mentallity (it never did us any harm in the 70s and 80s and Fergie has had it with his teams for a long time too).
Fergies a strange one. While all that complaining about refs & times & other clubs etc was seen as him building a siege mentality I actually think he was smarter than that. He kept being outspoken, he kept taking the fines and his real message was: you can't stop me doing or saying exactly what I want, when I want. He was declaring that he believed everything outside of United was irrelevant including ruling bodies and press. His was a very positive outlook disguised as complaining. Now, his success on the pitch helped. But he was never really defensive or reactionary. Everything he does and says is calculated. Eventually the press had to play his game. Is he some God like all knowing figure? Of course not but he was and is single minded in his approach to bringing success to his club. At the moment we are playing the presses game & badly. It's actually my only criticism of Kenny (and its also something I admire at the same time):He wears his heart on his sleeve and shows his distaste for the media. While justifiable because of his experiences it's the wrong kind of siege mentality, it's a negative one and we all have to stop focussing on the negative external opinions we can not control. We need to build a positive insular outlook that believes all else but winning is irrelevant. All that really matters is we have a team that wants to play attractive winning football and will run through walls to do so. A management team in place that can direct that effort into seasonal success and a group of owners who will supply what is needed to allow the rest. I think we're getting there. To keep responding to this press malarkey distracts us from our goals.
I'll just add that I believe KD is actually doing this within the club & when you actually listen to what he says; he IS saying we don't care what others think. It just gets lost a little in the delivery done times lol.
Gents,as long as i can remember the media have had a problem with LFC and anything affilated with it. I remember the later part of the 80's when United started the season 11 or 12 straight wins, you'd have thought they'd won the league by October the way they banged on about it. Now a days the sing the song to United and Ferguson's tune. What other top flight manager would be allowed to ban members of the media if they asked questions he didn't like? I've given up years ago believing anything spoken or written in media circle's, they have an agenda to sensationalise all stories and discrediting anything LFC scores points favourably. You only have to look at the disgusting lies written after Hillsborough to understand the utter hatred towards LFC. Re the original post, any European football should be taken. The europa cup gives a chance to gain valuable experience against foriegn oppenents. Also it could be used to give squad players/ youth teams players valuable 1st team experience.
My only question is why would the FA care that we refused the invitation to a UEFA competition? In fact they'd jump at the chance to give it to Everton or someone. UEFA would get pissed and punish us. The only press would be negative and that causes dropped sponsors. More importantly there is one one point I'd like to mention. You know how every week some player or other mentions to the press how he thinks the Europa is degrading and he'd never play in it? Well that's the mercenary attitude of players we don't want! There are players, good players, that say they are more than happy to play for their team anywhere. Those are the types of players we want. Not the kind that only think of themselves in the spotlight. The UEFA Cup was a more than respectable tournament but obviously sponsors wanted this format and ruined it. That does not devalue winning it (perhaps the group stages). As a fan I could say the same about the CC and yet were all happy we won it aren't we?
Whilst I agree with the above DF I'd like to add that Fergie always had the advantage in terms of his position was as manager of the traditional media darlings so his rants and raves weren't necessarilly portrayed in as negative a light as managers of other clubs. Plus being given a knighthood didn't half help his ability to manipulate and stay on top of the hacks. Not a criticism as he's obviously a very clever fella but its undoubtedly helped him along the way. Kenny doesn't have these luxuries which is exactly why he needs the backing of us lot and the board despite the waves the media will constantly try and create surrounding the team, manager and club
Faiir enough. I thought I'd thought it through, but it's not standing up to scrutiny or logic. I still think we need some gesture re the suarez business, just to show we aren't beaten. I took a blouse attack back in January when the owners forced Kenny to back down. I just KNEW, and I'm sure several others did, that this was just the green light those tirds from Sunday Supplement were waiting for, and even had we won every game since then 10-nil those shighthawks would have formed a second witchhunt anyway. And when Commolli got sacked and not Kenny.... Jesus, the indignation of the arzeholes knew no bounds. As I say, it's not over, but you're right about enjoying the victories and circling the wagons around Kenny. And, as my brother-in-law says, I need to stop reading the ****shafts in the first place.
