Mick, Ive always been sure you are a fairly sharp guy, but, your incisive, intuitive grasp of the geo-political situation at play here is truly mind-boggling
Missed the point... It looking at what Scottish clubs need to do to survive and remain as competitive as possible... No-one wants to break up the team but Celtic, as a PLC, will sell players who value has risen. I have named three where I think 2 would have no major impact on the team (Ki and Commons - not first choices) and 1 with the most valuable (Hooper). Celtic now need to start adding players who will move some 1st teamers into squad players to enhance the teams chances in europe. To do this Celtic will need to sell ... no if, no buts - Celtic will need to sell to buy. Celtic's finances are healthy but not that healthy that they can spend milions without taking any money in... Celtic need to model themselves on european teams like Ajax and stop throwing money away on players who don't add anything other than another squad player...
Pud, There is no way that Celtic as a PLC have to sell players at a profit. Splitting up the first team squad for the sake of money is the last think any supporter or fan should think. The club can make far more money by building on the squad we already have, progress in Europe, gain European money and bigger TV money for European football. Breaking up a winning squad especially if players have not asked to go is the road to total break-down in trust in the squad. It just would not make economic sense because even if we make £10 m on sales we could easily pay £12m for players who don't settle and don't perform. It is more important to keep players who have performed from good to very good, than to buy in a player who may or may not play well. Remember Juarez, he came and played very well for a month, went on International break, came-back and hasn't performed since. We know what Ki Kris, and Hooper can do. For God sake don't even think of setting out next season without them. I hope we have a better striker than Hooper or Stokes but we still need them.
I have not missed the point at all. I have already said i understand the economics of a PLC point of view. My belief is that we should keep this young team together and build on it, perhaps with more cheapies Like Joe, Matthews, Commons, etc [who i rate very highly when fit]. Why do we have to sell any first team players, when as you say yourself, Celtic finances are healthy? Surely it would be better to continue with a winning formula. {capital Bhoy lists 14 players on another thread, 13 of whom i would agree should be sold} As for throwing money away on squad players, how is anyone sure a player you bring in is going to perform better than what we have?. Its always going to be a bit of a gamble signing someone new and Scottish pitches are not always the best places for good footballers. Sh mentions Juarez for one, a Mexican international, who didnt come cheap, but it didnt work out with him. IMO this team should be kept together, if possible, and if our scouts can point out some bargains, as they have done, then all the better, i feel thats the best way forward, but that is only my opinion. Yours is different, thats fair enough.
A good post H67. I too would like this young team kept together to see if they can fulfil their potential but I think that sooner or later good players will be sold if/when the money is right. You make valid points, however, with which it is difficult to find fault ... not that I'm looking for it mind but I dare say someone may attempt to do so!
Yes they do. It's the business model Peter Lawwell will have set. I'm sure rebel has even quoted Mr Lawwell. It's how smaller clubs - when comapred to the finances of Barca/Real/Man U etc - have to do as a business. Fans want to keep the squad together but to add players of quality funds will have to be raised. If Celtic keep the squad together - great but there wont be any progression. It's not good enough yet for the Champions league - Celtic need 3 quality (and experienced players) to make a decent fist of it in europe (i.e champions league group stages).
Finances are healthy but if Celtci miss out on europe next season , they debt will rise and the board will have to sell more players than 2 or 3. Celtic wil never spend millions on top - it will all equate to net spend. Celtic's transfer outgoings over past 5 years have nearly matched transfer fee incomings - it's been posted before. To make the champions league Celtic need quality and experience. Freebies n cheapies won't cut it - we have a great squad but need some players to come in a push soem 1st teamers into squad players.. The core of a fine squad needs to be added to but the PLC will not sanction money out without money coming in... I'd keep teh squad and cut dead wood but dead wood wont raise enough funds.
Pud, How do you know that just because we play say, £5m each for a centre half, a creative midfielder and a taller striker. How can you be sure that they will fit into our team, and equally important that our team will fit into playing with them. Players can be bought on free- transfer or for very little money because they have run down their contract or because our scouts have picked out some wonder kid like Victor. Selling decent players for the sake of raising funds to buy others is a mug's game. I know most people thought we were on to a good player when we got Donnati, I still think he was a good player but it did not work-out. We know what we have with the players we have. We know we have excess players, but the Manager who bought Murphy or Ras or Juarez wasn't buying them just to loan out. The manager thought they could do a job. We now think that was wrong. Our board over the last 10 years haven't exactly been pushing good players out of the club. The opposite is true they have supported Managers in bringing in players and I hope that continues. Pud, I know you are not one of the idiots ,that appears on other boards and post that are stupidly of the opinion that the board is anti the football side of the club. Our board has encouraged sensible spending with the hope that they can keep the books under control and I believe they can continue to strengthen our squad, by moving on the players who have not really made it and buying wisely as Neil has mostly done.
I'm not a scout or a football manager, so I have no idea if any player would fit in with the squad - be it a "freebie" or a player bought for a few £m. Celtic have a very good squad. However, some dead wood (Ras,McGinn,O'Dea etc) needs cut to free up wages. This will allow Cetic to sign promising youngters/scouted players (Matthews and Victor) and the odd brilliant freebie (like Ledley). This would add to a very talented squad with masses of potential. You can be certain that the reason Celtic have been targetting mainly young players with potential is to maximise sell on value. However, the one thing I belive is missing from the squad is experience. This is a must to make progress in Europe. Celtic can't afford to get quality experienced players by using the bosman route - these guys wages would break the bank. IF Neil Lennon wants to add experienced/proven players you can bet that the board will tell him to sell before he can buy. It's simple economics - the board will not sanction any significant money out without receving significant money in. They only way to raise significant funds is to sell those with a value who will not have a major impact on the squad (Commons and Ki are, in my opinion, not first choice midfielders especially as we have another one coming in) and a player whose value has risen (Hooper). I'd rather keep Hooper but I believe that if a bid of £6m+ comes in, he will be sold by the board. Not my wish/not my decision but the board, as a PLC, will not be in a position to refuse this type of money - especially if NL wants to buy more players. If Celtic want to progress, they must follow the lead of many european teams - devlope young players, raise their value, sell on, make a profit and then start the process again. It's the only way forward - especially in a league were we recieve very little TV/prize money.
I am sorry I cannot believe what I am reading. People who I believe are Celtic fans talking about selling young Celtic players who have not reached their full potential. This is real crazy. Imagine if Celtic around 1964/1965 had sold their young players like Johnstone Lennox and Murdoch we know who would not have won the big one in 1967. Antrmmorboy says, as Ki doesn't make the team when everyone is fit then we should sell him. Let me tell you that you could have used the same argument in 64/65 about the three named players. I wonder when everyone has last been fit. The players we have may not be strong enough to take us as far as we want to go. But the way to go further is to build on what we have and make the suad better. This can be done by promotion from within the club and one or two signings. Wages can be freed up by getting some of the players who have been here for quite a while and not really making a contribution moved on. Any fees that can be attained will of course be very useful. Really bhoys players will want to move on soon enough, we should not want to speed up the process. It appears we have a good squad unity, lets keep it. This process of signing exciting young players started two years ago to begin pruning of some of the better ones would be very short sighted and the height of stupidity. Porto because a lot of their youngsters are South American and the Portuguese league is considered a higher standard can get far more money than we are, so maybe its wiser for them to use a revolving door system.
Firstly, you talk about a different era when finance wasn't as big an issue as it is today - not relevant. Secondly, I have no idea how to explain my point any simplier! I'm not advoctaing selling players just facing the reality that it will happen! The current squad is not good enough for the Champions League. I want them to build/grow and add more to the existing squad (minus dead wood) by signing young players/buying experienced quality players but it simply wont happen ... To sign/buy any more players, Celtic will have to sell! To add experience and quality for Europe - they will have to spend money. Simply facing facts doesn't make me any less of a Celtic fan! Feel free to bump my replies if Celtic sell no one of any signifcance (from the current 1st team squad - best 18) in the Summer! But they will ...
**** sake. Are you stuck in a bubble? You are talking about nearly 50 years ago you dumb animal. Football has changed. So has the currency. The Beatles split up and Communism fell. I haven't seen cremola foam for years. Have you not noticed that Irn-bru has changed?
Mr T. my post was posted with you in mind, as your club is nearly at an end you are irrelevant and so I won't attempt to address it. Funny that Pud, you talk about the times of the Lisbon Lions as been a different era, and of course you are right but it was the unwilliness of Celtic to pay bigger wages brought about quality young players leaving. D. Hay Macari and kenny. Pud, it is not cerain that abig bid will come in for Hooper or any other player. If Celtic or the player don't actively seek a bid none may arise. Celtic have not been selling players , for the sake of selling for over 10 years now. I know there is always the negative feeling around every transfer window but hopefully we will aas nearly always keep our better players. Trim those who have not quite made it of course.
Pud if you choose to call the players you were paid to come to Celtic and for some reason have not turned out as good as the Celtic manager thought they would be as "hangers on" that is your business. Don't try to put words in my mouth.
Pud the replies seem to be a two way sword. I have no idea why you needed to reply to my post that ended, "Trim those who did have not quite made it of course" by your reference to "hangers on". Of course, Dev is just acting true to form, poor thing.
