Yes, and you were also doing much better on the field than Pompey were at the time. Which was my point. A successful team will attract more fans than a struggling one. Which was what I was trying to say when I brought up the attendances. In the season you struggled and got relegated to the third tier you did not attract the same amount of fans as you did when you challenging for promotion to the Championship and now challenging for Premier League promotion. The idea that somehow Southampton's better average attendance this season is an indication of the Saint fans caring more about their club than Pompey fans care about theirs is what I was arguing against.
You have answered it yourself, we averaged 5,000 more in our relegation season, and as Fran pointed out, averaged 21,000 in League One despite not having much chance of promotion in 2009/10....It doesn't matter if you had less empty seats, it's all about the bums that are on the seats that count. We averaged over 30,000 in our relegation season in 2004/05, just to counteract your argument about a losing team.
Southampton fans harping on about attendances, I never would have expected that!!!!! If you're gonna make such sweeping statements, you should really back them up.
So the arguement flew over your head as well then? It wasn't about how many people you got in verses people Portsmouth go it, both clubs have had some dreadful turn out in recent seasons, it was about how on-field success effects fan support.
Saints alive You've missed the point but I would respond as follows:- 1. I never stated that Saints fans aren't passionate. Read my comments. 2. I agree that Southampton is largely working class but the fact is that only a portion of Saints fans come from that city. Like myself, many fans also come from Winchester - hardly a hotbed of socialism? (For what it's worth, my "Vote Labour" posters that I put up in the last election where actually ripped down and throw in the bin by a neighbour! ) A significant proportion of Southampton's support does come from areas of affluence such as Winchester, Romsey, Salisbury, Lymminton, etc, etc. Granted Southampton is a working class city with a proud past of returning Labour MPs' but taken as a whole, the catchment for Southampton support probably contains a larger proprtion of middle class individuals. I would argue that our cultural identity is probably far wider spread than is the case of Portsmouth. Accordingly, there is very much both a class and civic identity with Portsmouth that I would argue is far more diffused for Southampton. 3. Why does Southampton have a greater support? Setting aside the respective positions in the league, I think there are other factors at play such as unemployment in portsmouth , poor facilities for supporters and the relationship between owners and supporters whereby the the directors have continually failed to build the kind of realtionship with the community as successfully as Southampton . (Who have probably been leaders in this respect throughout the UK.) I think that the respective owners of Southampton have marketed the club far more successfully than Portsmouth and as a "product", it is demonstrably superior to what our friends down the road have been offered. Portsmouth have never properly cultivated the kind of relationship with their fans as Southampton have. What the realtionship between directors and fans breaks down, it is deeply disturbing for Saints fans whereas this is the norm with many clubs. I would reiterate my remark about Saints being a family club. i think this is true whereas Portsmouth are more in the tradition of Liverpool, West Ham, Newcastle, etc in their resolutely "working class" appeal. It is also very interesting to consider our past which, although we had our origins in St Marys, the club quickly moved to the then more middle class, leafy suburbs of the cricket ground behind Bannister Park school and then Archer's Road. 4. You've also answered you own question insofar that the catchment for Portsmouth is squarely located within that conurbation. The only areas of affluence outside this catchment would probably include Chichester and Petersfield but I don't think this matches the social demographic for Southampton. As I said, in many respects Portsmouth are an old-fashioned club and are probably in the same kind of position as we were in their relationship with their fans twenty years ago. Until I started to work in the PO postcode area, I would have taken precisely the same view as you. However, if the moderators would be obliged to open this thread up to Portsmouth fans I would be interested to see their response to my comments. I said that it is difficult to assess who is the most passionate of all club supporters but I would stand by my comments about the general difference between the fans. Not trying to be controversial but perhaps offer a more balanced view from a Saints fan who works in the "blue half" of Hampshire. There is definately a failure on the part of many Saints fans to properly understand Portsmouth and i grant you that the likes of John Westwood or Singingblue3 make this even more of a challenge. If you look at the other clubs in Southern England, they all mirror Southampton in many respects whether it is Reading, Bournemouth, Yoevil, Plymouth or Brighton. None of these clubs have the working class affinity that you would associate with Portsmouth who, if you like, share an identity with many Northern clubs if not London teams like West Ham. In my mind, Portsmouth are unique in this respect and the myths about their support rely on this as a foundation. and like all myths, there is often an element of truth in this.
My argument still holds that despite Southampton Greater area being smaller than the Greater Portsmouth area , more people go to watch their team in Southampton than they they do in Portsmouth ( even in our relative relegation seasons)...does this mean that the public care about their team more in Southampton?
Still harping on about attendances! Totally unexpected!!!!! And well said Ian, I read both your posts and you make some very good points. My above statement wasn't direct at you btw. I think the reason our support isn't as spread out is for a variety of reasons, some you mentioned. Also, Southampton were in the Premier League for a while, allowing them to build up a following from non-locals, people living in Andover or wherever would perhaps chose Southampton over say Chelsea, while Portsmouth were in the premiership for a relatively short period of time. So less people living locally (say in I dunno, Basingstoke) would choose Portsmouth over say Chelsea because there was a shorter period in which we would have been an alternative to Chelsea, etc.
That's what one thing Saints and Pompey fans have in common...they support a local side. I know that sometimes your heart can be hijacked by a team unexpectedly, but I respect people more who support their home side.
When someone questions the passion of my club's supporters on my team's board then I will naturally defend them, you don't like anyone mentioning our teams relative support, because I would suggest that it is a source of acute embarrassment to you.
The person who you perceive to be questioning the passion of your club's supporters (I say perceive because he mentioned just a few posts ago that he was not questioning the passion of your club's supporters) is actually a Southampton fan, so there's no reason to bring Portsmouth into it. Furthermore, the reason I don't like people mentioning the relative support of Southampton and Portsmouth is because it's dull, tedious, repetitive, boring and something that is harped on about a lot (as you could tell from my sarcasm). It is no source of embarrassment to me, because I don't give a damn what Southampton's attendances are and therefore have no interest in comparing them in relation to Portsmouth's attendance.
I ventured on to The News site to mention the obscene Tweet on Billys site, got the expected respones from one "eastneyboy" - "Wow! Some twit of a footballer has had abuse posted on his twitter site. Is that really news? NO! Now go away before I resort to bad language...." - I asked him if he approved of the practice, his response "Yes, Yes, YES!!! Now go away you pathetic creature!" and they wonder why we don't like them.
Lapras There was a good thread a few weeks ago about class and football which is well worth reading. Incidently, my sister lived up in Cheshire and there is a similar issue in Manchester where City are very much the club supported by the fans from around Manchester in the working class districts whereas the United supporters tend to come from outside the city. Thanks for the support, by the way. Trying to look at things from an unbiased perspective. Cheers Ian
A few sarcastic posts hardly counts as entering the debate. ....... My post regarding the respective length of time in the Premiership of Southampton and Portsmouth was just an additional point to add to what Ian said. The actual attendance figures, I don't give a damn about. I have no idea what Southampton's attendances were during your relegation season or this season, nor do I have any desire to look them up. Every club has it's idiots. It is incredibly important not to generalise an entire group based on the actions of a few idiots. That doesn't just apply to football either. I think a lot of the world's problems are caused by people generalising an entire group.
I'll say to you what I said to St Godders of Windsor: Dont go on the News webiste in the first place! Its full of idiots and morons who can hardly string a sentance together and who pool their collective intellects to thrown insults at each other and even the people who work for the paper! The News website showcases the worst of us - Portsmouth and Southampton fans alike.
There is as you say a very small minority that persist on trying to keep that myth alive. The fact that a few of us Saints fans keep referring to it keeps the myth alive. Albeit just a shadow of the original myth. To the person that keeps twittering (is that the correct term) these obscenities is not a true football fan. I expect he goes to bed thinking what a bigman he is for posting such trash. There is supposed to be some one monitoring the site for such obscenities. Isn't that how they caught the the guy who was making racialist comments and later sent him down.
Picking up the notion of clubs and class identity, I see that this book hasd just been published and chronicles one of the first instances of a working class football team up against more affluent opposition. I must admit to being a sucker for anything about Victorian football and this is one that is going straight to by birthday list! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Underdogs-Unlikely-Story-Football%C2%92s-Heroes/dp/0224083139/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1333915633&sr=1-2
You obviously don't 'tweet' then Beddy. The kind of people who use twitter to send out these types of tweets aren't anything other than the most stupid kind of creature with addled mush for brains. Unfortunately the world is full of them. I'm sure there must be some kind of monitoring of twitter - but most of these ungodly creatures are caught by other twitter users complaining to the police about the tweets. They are too stupid to realise how easily caught they can be. They make me despair of humankind!
To be honest there were a lot of decent Pompey fans posting on The News site, but most have left as they couldn't put up with the neanderthal comments of a very small minority. Sign of the times I guess.
