People say mind games don't work but in my opinion they do work, its a physcological advantage and a mental one as well, a case in point was Kevin Keegan, i can't remember which season it was but i remember the quote'' i would love it if we beat them love it'' the manager's mind games got to him. Another example was Rafael Benitez it was in the 08/09 season a few days before we were playing Chelsea at Old trafford and i remember it very clearly, he got his list out and he was telling the world about his facts, the pressure got to him and the manager got under his skin. Thoughts ?
I think they do a bit, yes. It's more that the fact the manager is clearly un nerved transferring onto the players. This creates a mentality that becomes self fulfilling. In the two instances you refer to, definitely. Both those squads went into meltdown after those rants, it can't be denied. Those are my thoughts.
They definitely do! When someone says something to get under someone elses skin, it'll change the whole mental approach to the game. For example, Mancini might put more effort into lashing back at Fergie, than winning their games. The Keegan and Benetiz examples also work.
The Keegan and Benitez ones are very different tho'. Keegan's comment came after Newcastle had already thrown a 12 point lead and were three points behind us with a game in hand and inferior GD when we had only one game to play. That was less a case of the mind games getting to him, and more a case of Keegan being unable to handle the pressure of a title challenge. SAF's comment about Leeds throwing the game against Newcastle were just the straw that broke an already dodgy back. The Benitez one was a true example of how SAF got in the head of a manager of a team that was way ahead of us and performing very well at the time. Benitez' rant effectively turned the season around and we went from ten points behind with two games in hand to surging past them a few weeks later and leading them comfortably right to the finish. The Benitez one definitely gave us a big advantage and made the difference. The Keegan one was just the last nail in the coffin of a man who was quite a way out of his depth imo. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the current one with City. On the one hand it has shades of Keegan, what with us having passed them already, on the other hand there's still a long season to go and the mind games appear to have already cost them a vital couple of points so far.
Keegan and his Newcastle side failed because they were not good enough defensively at the end of the day. That is a footballing fact. To suggest that United only won the league that year 'cos Keegan 'lost it' is dismissive of the United team that year, a very good team in my opinion and one that deserve to be called champions on their own merit, rather that one that won the league 'cos Fergie got to Keegan! Benitez' 'list' was a bit odd I admit, but what he said was what he thought. The fact is that his Liverpool team challenged United to the last two games of the season, I am not sure that you could say Fergie got to him, I think it was just simply a case that United had the better team that season! I think the whole Fergie 'mind-game' nonsense is just simply people failing to see that United were the best teams anyway in those seasons, and thus they point to Fergie as being some sort of psychological guru, trust me, he is not! If he was then what went wrong this season when he used his 'mind-games' to unsettle both Basle and Bilbao? Also, what if City win the league this season? Will it be said that Fergie has lost the 'mind-game' war? Nope, people will point to the fact that City were the best team...so why is it different? The answer is that United fans want to believe in the mumbo-jumbo psycho-babble that a large section of the media promote, i.e. Fergie is some sort of psycholgical guru...but only when they win!!!
Benitez reacted purely to SAF saying Utd had the harder fixture list and Liverpool were scared of losing the lead. It's quite clear SAF got to him - Liverpool dropped 11 points in their next seven games after his rant, going from being four points ahead to seven points behind, and having played a game more than us. That was the point Benitez stopped focusing on Liverpool and started focusing on Man Utd, and it was nothing but downhill for them from there. As for Basel and Bilbao, the mind games only work in the league. The whole purpose of them is to distract a manager or team from their own games and make them focus on what another team is doing. That won't work in a cup game, as the other team is in the same game!
No one is suggesting that for a second, United were infinitely superior to Newcastle and that much is obvious. What Keegans rant did was make that clear to Newcastle players, him melting down so obviously meant they never stood a chance of rescuing their season as he had lost control. It's debatable of course that this is what Fergie had in mind when he said what he said about Leeds. Knowing how fragile and volatile Keegan is mentally though I think he did. Ferguson is a psychological genious, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. How do you think he gets his squads to season after season after season run through walls for him? Luck? No, is it ****, his man management slills are unbeatable, his teams are frothing at the mouth by April, and it could be said he uses a reverse psychology on his opponents. He might not though, it could be just luck.
So you are saying that Liverpool, as a club, lost or drew games because Benitez suggested that United were favoured? Nothing to do with the fact that United actually played better towards the end of the season...is that not a total disrespect to the United team that season? In fact, let's go one step further, if you are suggesting that it was Rafa's rant that won the league for United that season, what does that say about the United team that found themselves behind Rafa's team that year up to that point? Were they not trying? Were they waiting for the psychological Guru to win his mind-game battle? Or were they simply just the best team over a 38 game period? As for your Bilbao/Basle comments...are you seriously trying to say that Fergie has some sort of on/off button which means that his psychological comments only work in the PL, but his comments regarding other competitions should be ignored? What you have basically just said is that Fergie's mind games work when United win, but when they lose they are not mind-games...how ridiculous is that stance!
rusholme I am not disputing his man-management skills, they are clearly the best there has ever been in the PL. I am just querying this 'mind-game' myth! It seems to apply when United are successful, but when they are not, as in this season, it is never mentioned that his 'mind-games' went wrong! In fact, as the poster above said incorrectly, 'Fergie's mind games only work in the league'! How nonsensical is that!
I personally think mind games do work but not to the point that a team can lose a title due to mind games by a rival opposition manager.
Yeah, I know what you're saying. In both cases we had the better side, and indeed the massively superior manager. As I said in my earlier post, I don't so much think that the mind games work on his opposing manger as such. I think that the squad seeing their manager so flustered allow a bit of doubt into their heads and this is where the mind games might have a bit of an effect. We know what a big advantage Fergie's man management gives us, is it not possible that the likes of Benitez and Keegan's lack of this also contributes to their downfall? Seeing them talk utter bollocks under stress must effect them.
I disagree! There are too many variables involved in a football match to suggest that a certain comment may influence a game or title race in my opinion! Some United fans were suggesting that the fact that City drew with Stoke was that they were feeling the pressure that Fergie had placed upon them after the spat. But how can you factor in Crouch's goal into that argument? You cannot, and to suggest that Fergie and his words had anything to do with City drawing that game is absurd when you consider the freakishness that that goal displayed!
Yes I am. The manager picks the team, decides the tactics, and motivates the players. If his head is in the wrong place he makes the wrong decisions and the team underperforms. Or are you suggesting that the reason Liverpool lost or drew games is that Utd played better? If so, why would Liverpool care about Utd? Unless they are not psychologically focused because they have been distracted by the comments of the other manager... No I'm not saying that. Suggest you read what I said and try again
I see your point, I still doubt the effect Fergie's words had in these circumstances. Having said that, by Fergie's own admission, he got it wrong in Europe this year, this is after he attempted to 'mind-game' both Basle and Bilbao, so where do you draw the line with this? A mind-game works only when you win? It is nonsense in my opinion, if, and a big IF, City win the league this year then where does that leave Fergie's mind-games? Absolutely bankrupt is the answer. But if United win the league then he will be seen as the master of them again, such a fine line, and one that I believe will be determined on the pitch and not in a press-conference, mind-games are a figment of gullible people's imaginmation, league titles are won on the pitch and won by players, not by managers walking out of press conferences laughing!
swarbs "Or are you suggesting that the reason Liverpool lost or drew games is that Utd played better? " No, I am saying that United were simply the better team. That to me is a simple enough assessment of that season, United were better over 38 games. You seem to be suggesting that that was not the case for some reason! And United only won the league cos Fergie got under Rafa's skin, are you really saying that Liverpool had the better footballing team that year but only lost the title cos Fergie got under Rafa's skin?? As for Bilbao/Basle, you said this.. "As for Basel and Bilbao, the mind games only work in the league. The whole purpose of them is to distract a manager or team from their own games and make them focus on what another team is doing. That won't work in a cup game, as the other team is in the same game!" Regardless of the fact that you contradict yourself, can you explain why 'mind-games' only work in the league? Surely it depends on what the comment is, i.e. 'x team are favourites cos they are at home'...that's a mind-game comment used by most managers in cup games....are you saying that comments such as this are not 'mind-games', because they refer to a single game?
I don't know if it's been mentioned on here but I think Swarbs mentioned it the other day. When Stoke were beating City last week Mancini delayed and delayed bringing Tevez on. Why ? Supposedly he has looked good in training and has lifted the team. Do you think he may have been due to SAFs press conference a few days earlier saying how City looked desperate bringing him back ? SAFs mind tricks definetly work in my opinion.
I'm not suggesting that at all. United were better over 38 games, but a large part of that is because Liverpool's manager did not have his head in the right place at a crucial part of the season. As has been pointed out ad infinitum over the past two seasons, Utd's current team is probably not the best in the league, and yet we are still on track to win the league in both of those seasons because of our manager. Winning the league is not about being "the better footballing team", whatever that might mean. It is about being mentally tough, tactically aware, and more consistent that the opponent. Much of that consistency comes from the manager, so if you get inside the head of the opposition manager, you make it much more likely they will make mistakes which can prove crucial. I haven't contradicted myself at all, not sure why you seem convinced I have? Mind games work in the league because they cause a manager and team to focus on their challengers for the title rather than their next opponents. In a cup competition, all you have to do is focus on your next opponents - whatever everyone else is doing doesn't affect you.
swarbs "As has been pointed out ad infinitum over the past two seasons, Utd's current team is probably not the best in the league, and yet we are still on track to win the league in both of those seasons because of our manager." United's team is the best in the league, and has been over the last two seasons. That is my opinion of course, but it is also the opinion of a lot of other people, are you saying that there is a better team, either last season or this? I would like to hear your reply on this! "Much of that consistency comes from the manager," Okay, so let's imagine that Fergie was in charge of Liverpool, as you say, 'much' comes from the manager...so given a hypothetical situation, would Liverpool be a better team than United this season if Fergie was at Liverpool?
As for Basel and Bilbao, the mind games only work in the league. The whole purpose of them is to distract a manager or team from their own games and make them focus on what another team is doing. That won't work in a cup game, as the other team is in the same game! Eh? Is City not in the same 'game' as United as in the PL title? You seem to think that Fergie's 'mind-games' only apply to the PL, so tell me when does it kick in? 10 games to go, 15, 12, 3? You are talking nonsense mate trying to excuse Ferie's ramblings before both the Basle and Bilbao defeats as not 'mind-games', it's the same stuff, he got it wrong, admit it! Admit that Fergie got it wrong, and thus his supposed 'mind-game' superiority backfired! Your lame, "it only counts in the league" response was embarrassing to read mate, you should have thought about that before you replied, tut tut tut!
Mind games can work if they affect the behaviour of the proposed target. For example a manager could say they are going to come here and just park the bus in the hope that would encourage the other team to be more attacking. Obviously the example is pretty weak but the whole idea is to influence your opponent. They are unlikely to backfire, in the above case this would be the opposing team being more attacking and then gaining victory because of it. Mostly they will fail i.e comments ignored team parks bus anyway. Swarbs made a good point somewhere about what Fergie said about Tevez being relied on may have meant he was subbed on later on, obviously just speculation but that would be a mind game working.
