For the record I disagree with this conclusion. But going with that theory, it would mean that he was incapable of making the pass without doing so. Given that the nature of the move gave Grosjean no option but to be where he was, this would still put Maldonado at fault for causing an avoidable incident.
The fact that Maldanado overshot the corner a little anyway goes some way to showing that unless Grosjean completely backed out there was going to be a collision. Once Grosjean didn't brake early it was too late, Maldanado went for a gap assuming that he would be given the place without a fight, not that wise when everyone is out to impress.
I'm sorry we will have to agree to disagree on this. Maldanado did not turn into Grosjean, Grosjean sharpen his steering angle to get back onto the track (after being forced wide) and turned into Maldando's REAR TYRE. Maldando could not account for such an action and can not be responsible for Grosjean's steering input and timing! As said I think it was heavy handed at worse, but I respect your opinion.
it wasn't a lunge and it wasn't contact to the rear quarter of the williams car as the pictures show. Maldonado wasn't taking his normal racing line either and hamilton was 3/4 of the way up the side of him, much like maldonado was to grosjean... Approaching the braking zone hamilton is a good way up the side of maldonado... please log in to view this image Maldonado starts to turn just here, WAY to early, to block hamilton (schumacher/villenuve-esque) check the posiition and angle of the HRT as it began to turn in at the shadow edge... please log in to view this image Here we see maldonado-grosjean just after they begin to turn in, much different from above? i would say they are both approx half to 3/4 along side?... please log in to view this image And as i said two pics up, maldonado turns in way to early and is about to mount the kerb with his left hand side wheels!!! hamilton has just began to brake further after realising maldonado isn't giving room and drops back slightly. please log in to view this image look at grosjeans hand, it doesn't change... please log in to view this image please log in to view this image And Maldonado alters his steering to momentarily straighten up and force grosjean to either back off or contact is made which similarily to webber/vettel @turkey leaves very little time to react. You can see that he's pretty much following rosberg's racing line in the first picture and then straightens up briefly and then turns right again... Now, i understand that this is the norm but you said above that maldonaldo makes NO steering input whereas grosjean does and also questioned maldonado's rear wheel steering. please log in to view this image please log in to view this image now this was all available to see in the videos posted but for some reason people are still not seeing the facts, i don't mean to sound patronising but screen grabs are easier than calling it in sec's of the video etc. just because the contact happened at different places doesn't mean they are totally different situations. massa did a similar "turn in" to hamilton in india iirc and was penalised, schumi did it to villenueve & hill too whats the difference?...
Many different opinions on Maldonado/Grosjean. For me it looked like Grosjean had yielded and given maldonado more than enough space to pass trouble free, yet Maldonado chose to push him of track. Unnecessary imo.
I respect that you feel Maldonado wasn't at fault, but it's beyond question that he was the one who changed direction to move into Grosjean's path. That's an objective fact, but not one that necessarily means that Maldonado was at fault. The debate is whether Grosjean could have backed out, and if he couldn't, whether he should have taken such a wide line that he would have had to have gone into the gravel. As for Maldonado, the questions are what was he trying to do in taking that corner so wide, and indeed whether without the collision he could have pulled off the move without completely leaving the track.
Firstly, great post chapper, very detailed! Purely on the topic of the Grosjean-Maldonado collision, I think it all comes down to your interpretation of rule 20.4 of the Sporting Regulations: If Maldonaldo does straighten up earlier than necessary on exiting the corner, then in my opinion he's guilty of the last part of this rule. He'll have turned in to make the corner, but if he straightens up to run wider and make full use of the track, then I think in the circumstances that would be an abnormal change of direction, and it forces Grosjean, who as chappers shows, doesn't alter his steering angle, beyond the edge of the track, or in this case into a collision.
The Grosjean/Maldondo stills are interesting but in freeze frame it is very difficult to see whether the steering input changes, however it does look like their was very little he could do to avoid it and as stated in my early posts I felt it was an unsporting gesture to say the least by Maldonado. In relation to the Hammilton/Maldonado the stills you have used dont show the actual point of contact (the one you have used is the still after the contact), the one you need is the still before which is where Lewis's FRONT wheel hits Maldanado's REAR wheel. They are also front facing stills which do not give a true image of positioning like the side angle images used in the Grosjean incident. Lewis is also off the track kerbing which Maldando is using as the apex point and would never had made the corner at the entry speed/angle. Hence the 2 incidents have no similarity whats so ever and I think that is the discussion we are having. In addition, Maldonado/Grosjen were full of fuel and Maldonado/Hammilton were empty - this has a massive bearing on braking points and understeer etc.... I admire your dilegence in finding evidence to support your claim but the basic fact which you dont seem to acknowledge is that in the Grosjean incident the corner was won by Maldando, in the Hamilton incident the corner was not won! What happened after the corner is open to debate and I think pretty much everyone agrees that Maldando has exceeded the sporting conduct. But, not one memeber of the team, the drivers or the pundits have felt the need to point fingers, so maybe we are all blowing it our of proportion? Someone else did comment that had Grosjean not damaged his front wheel then there woudl be no debate and I think that is correct.
This clip gibes a better perspective of the Maldonado/Hammilton incident and I think it cleary shows the difference in the 2 incidents. This one happens prior to the corner and is a rear quarter impact and the Grosjean one is after the corner. Anyway I think you have put forward an excellent argument (although I am looking at the Grosjean incident differently now I still see no similarities between the 2 incidents) and it just shows how difficult it must be for the stewards to get it right in rela time! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqEPJTEbfjc
Maldonado's fault entirely. I'm not sure Grosjean could have given him any more room, even if he'd pulled a Kimi by grabbing a magnum and coke then taking a seat in the stands.
As for the Hammy/Maldonado at Monaco. At the time, I blamed Hamilton. I've watched it a few times since and Maldonado had quite a part to play in that whole collision. If there is a car by your side, you can't just decide to turn in on it.
Maybe this: please log in to view this image or this please log in to view this image or even... please log in to view this image Depends on personal perspective, much like the safe following distance on motorways for example which is say 50m in a normal car and about 3mm in an Audi
Let's take chappers second pic. If you turn in there, you're going to lock wheels and have a collision. No two ways about it. When Hamilton made that same move on Schumacher, the door wasn't slammed totally and the move was made. I know I'll not convince you that Maldonado was at fault, nor am I attempting to. My initial opinion was that it was Hamiltions fault, but since then I now believe Maldonado was as much to blame and quite possibly the one who could have avoided the accident. Look at Spa when Hammy hit Kobayashi. Different incidents but Hamilton took the line when (part) of a car was along side him. Hamilton was the one at fault by taking the space already occupied and could have avoided that accident.
Why should Maldonado just give way and let Hamilton passed though? Maldonado was ahead and had the racing line, the only way in which he could do anything to avoid hitting Hamilton would be to give way and give Hamilton the corner which he has no reason to do.
I agree with that, I noticed from the in car view that the cars seemed to be very 'lively', reminded me of karting a bit tbh, not as smooth as I remember them being.
I'm not saying he should just give up the corner, but on the other hand you can say that slamming a door so resoundingly shut might not be the best idea either.
I'm not going to go back into that incident. But if any driver demonstrably goes into a corner with the attitude that if I'm not in front then the other guy is retiring, he needs to be dealt with. Demonstrably being the operative word, I accept.
I agree with this, but that has to depend on the corner in question, i.e. is there enough room at racing speed. I think Grosjean proved that there was more than enough room in the corner at Melbourne which is why Maldonado is being questioned. In Monaco there was very little chance of 2 cars getting through the corner, especially with the barriers. So if Maldonado is to blame at Monaco (which I firmly disagree with) where was Maldonado to go? I'm not sure that even if he wanted to (which is another debate) how he could have given Lewis the room without running into the barrier?
